JimB asked this question on the “bring it up” page (a page where anyone is free to bring something up.) Since I care about helping people find some clarity, with all the misconceptions, specifically regarding IHOP, I’ve chosen to answer this question in a post. He asked:
First let me answer the question by establishing some facts as frame work first.1. God is all sovereign. (Ps. 115:3; Is. 45:18; Job 38&39; Romans 9:20-21; Revelation 4&5) No one is bringing into question God’s sovereignty when speaking of intercession. We can decipher from scripture that God’s primary objective is his glory. More specifically His son’s glory. (Col.1) God is not contingent upon us to do anything. He is the potter, we are the clay. He doesn’t need us. Yet that’s the glory of the gospel, He desires that we partner with him, to be with him. John 3:16, John 17, Col. 1, Eph. 2, Col. 3. Because of his kindness, because of his love and mercy he sent his son to die for our sins, so that we can be with him where he is. I say this so we are clear when discussing intercession. There are many open theistic, humanistic doctrines out there that I and IHOP both consider heresy, which if our idea of intercession gets someone there, then indeed we must articulate it better. (I make it a habit not to speak on be half of IHOP, But since it has been declared publicly enough times, I feel I can confidentially represent them on that point.)
2. The purpose of IHOP is not to make Jesus come back faster. Our purpose is to fast and pray because we believe Jesus is coming back soon. (Again I speak for IHOP in that as well because it’s a public fact, but I am not an official spokesman nor can I be labeled as one.)
Let’s look at the first quote that was left on my blog: “Keep praying my brother…let’s bring Jesus back in our lifetime!”
Your question, if I understand you correctly is; Are we at IHOP saying that prayer and intercession speeds up the time in which Jesus will return? In other words saying that God is contingent upon our prayers to send his son back to the Earth. Hermeneutic-ally I can’t definitively say yes. But I can say biblically we are called to, “Hasten the day of the Lord.” 2Peter 3:11-13. I can say biblically we are called to say when we pray, “Let your Kingdom Come, let your will be done, here on Earth as it is in Heaven.” I can also show you countless examples where God reacts based on the actions of a person. Abraham and Sodom and Gomorrah, Gen. 18:22-33. God sends a warning to Nineveh through the prophet Jonah. Nineveh repents, God turns from his wrath. Ahab under the manipulation of Jezebel, kills Naboth and takes his vineyard. God condemns Ahab through Elijah. Ahab repents, God turns from his immediate wrath and spares Ahab’s life. Joel 2, God is warning Israel. He calls them to fast and pray, and “who knows? maybe He’ll turn from his wrath and leave behind a blessing instead.” Isiah 62, God says I have set watchmen on you wall oh Israel who will not hold their peace Day or Night. Until Your name is a praise in the Earth. We then see the example you brought up of the Harp and Bowl in Revelations 5:8 Then we see those prayers mentioned again in Revelations 8:1-5. When the bowl is full we see those prayers being the catalyst bringing in the next judgment series. Then my last example we have Revelation 22:17 “The spirit and the Bride say come.” Hastening the Day of his appearing. There are many more examples of this concept. We see it with Moses. We see it with Jacob wrestling with God, until God blesses him. We see it in 2 Chronicles 7:14 Where God says if you fast and pray, and turn from wickedness, only then will I save and heal your land. But it is contingent upon us making that decision. We also see that there are plenty other factors contingent upon Human reaction: Matthew 24:14 “And this gospel of the kingdom will be proclaimed throughout the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.” Romans 11:25 “Lest you be wise in your own sight, I want you to understand this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.” Do these things also call into question God’s Sovereignty? The Great commission being fulfilled before He comes is contingent upon us.
Does this mean that God changes his mind? Does this mean we can change the course God has ordained? Does this mean God can’t act until we act? No. Because again God is all sovereign. The explanation for these instances where God seemingly changes based on human reaction are indeed a mystery, and why I love God. My belief is that God has set it up this way so that we would partner with him in what He has ordained. Our prayers fill the bowl not because He needs us, but because He wants us. (John 3:16; John17) Thus why the Bridal Paradigm is needed. Which isn’t about Jesus being our spiritual husband, but uses the allegory to paint the picture John 3:16 paints. We love Him because He first loved us. (1John 4:8)
We hasten the Day of the Lord and eagerly wait for his return, not because He needs us to, but because the Word tells us to. I believe the comment left that sparked your curiosity, was eluding to the hastening of the day of the lord. Was eluding to the “Lord’s prayer” “Let your Kingdom Come, Let your will be done on Earth as it is in Heaven.” and 2 Peter 3:11-13. Do I or have I heard it preached at IHOP that we are praying for the purpose of bringing Jesus back faster? No. But IHOP and I do believe Jesus is coming back soon.
The other quote (not by me) you brought into question was: “A place where the Lord can establish His presence so that He can have His will done by making our town into a city of refuge for the days ahead.”
This quote is referring to Psalms 132:1-5. Creating a place on the Earth for the spirit of the Lord to dwell. Not saying that we need to reestablish the rabbinic tabernacle of David. But saying we need to create a place with in us for the Holy Spirit to rest. Christ is in us. The Spirit already abides in us, but by resting place I mean a place free of gossip and slander. A place free of lust and perversion. A place where the spirit can rest. The city of refuge is not a biblical quotation, but from a prophecy about cities of refuge being raised up at the end of the Age. We see however a principle in the Word where when God brings judgment, like He did on Egypt, He made Goshen a city of refuge. (Exodus 9:26) Since many of the judgments and plagues in Revelation parallel those that God pored out on Eygpt, we draw the same conclusion that there will be cities of refuge in the End-Time judgment. This concept is preached by Mike with the caveat that it’s an idea, not a certainty. It’s brought with some boldness because of the prophecy.
I hope that can begin to answer your questions. Or at least get the conversation going. This post was written on the fly, I didn’t give as much mental effort as I would have wished to. But busyness thus consumes.
Bless you and thank you for your questions they challenge me.
.::zack hensley
32 Comments
Jpm1000000pmFri, 04 Jan 2008 20:17:47 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, January 4, 2008
Zack,
I’ve a question. What exactly do you consider cities of refuge in the EndTime judgement? Since you believe Jesus is coming soon, who would they be for?
Jpm1000000pmFri, 04 Jan 2008 21:03:07 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, January 4, 2008
mbaker,
Goshen is the picture of what it looks like. As far as we know, cities of refuge will be places sparred of God’s wrath, during the 3 seperate judgement series. (I.e. seals, trumpets and the bowls)
The cities will be for those who love Jesus, and reject the spirit of the anti-christ.
There is an opinion out there that cities of refuge will only be for those praying in houses of prayer. And those not in the prayer movement will have to endure the plauges. That is false, and unbiblical. However I beleive that cities of refuge will have houses of prayer. If anything because logically in that day most saints will want to pray together while tradgedy engulfs the Earth.
and like I said in the post, cities of refuge are implied in the word. We don’t even really know for sure if they will exist in those days. but it’s a hope.
Jpm1000000pmFri, 04 Jan 2008 23:07:13 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, January 4, 2008
I really haven’t heard of the prophecy that you are talking about Zack. Funny thing, maybe I should share a little of my testimony, it may give further understanding to someone of what God is doing.
Up untill about seven or eight months ago, I have only a cursory knowldge of IHOP (though I doubt I really know much now). Before that, I think a little over a year ago I may have just learned of the whole 24/7 prayer movement. All I know is, that about four years ago I was given a set of video’s to watch from a friend of mine, they were called “Transformation.” These chronicled what was happening all over the globe when people began to pray. They came togehter dispite denominational, ethnic, economic or gender differences and whole cities were changed dramatically. A Multi billion dollar drug cartel was broken in Cali, Columbia and the strong hold of satan dismantled to allow for revival city wide. The Fiji islands were saved from chaos, another place in Africa was delivered from whichcraft oppression and the churches flourished because the people of God began to pray and fast.
I got a vision after watching them of a place in our city where people from every church could come together and pray day or night. that’s all I had. A year an a half later He quickened me one night to assemble several intercessors in our church to meet together on Saturdays to wait on Him and interceed for the church and the community. He named them and I did what He said. from that day the Lord has been teaching us about prayer, intercession and the prophetic gifts. He began to give more definition to what it was He was calling us to as time has gone on. About fourteen months ago I heard of IHOP and what they are doing, and durring this time last year I began to hear about the Call Nashville and was stirred to go and take the team with me.
(I’m going somewhere with this, give me just a minuet) That is when I started hearing more of what was going on at IHOP, and that they had 24/7 worship and prayer. In about March or April of ‘07 I’m spending my time with the Lord one morning and I have this encounter, a scepter is given to me with a mandate to build a house of prayer in my city. I thought, what do I know about the house of prayer? How in the world am I suppose to do that? I agreed and have been seeking knowldge of what the house of prayer is about from the Lord, and started to look at others who are doing it.
I had knowledge that the Lord wanted to make our city a city of refuge before this encounter. Would this be a heretical statement if I said: since Jesus died for the sins of the world, if people reject, or do not accept His payment for thier redemption, they are guilty of His blood? As the Jews said, “let His blood be on our hands and on the hands of our children.” Though it be the Jewish people that condemned our Lord to death, can we as men, be guiltless unless we repent?
Why then would it be a far stretch to comprehend the idea that the type of the city of refuge was prefigured in the land of Isreal as out lined in Numbers 35:9-29? The concept was that whoever accidently murdered could flee to the city of refuge from the avenger of blood and be safe. The person who had teh sentance of death on him could flee to the city and find refuge from the avenger.
Everybody outside of the covenant of Jesus’ shed blood has the wrath of God abiding on them already as Paul said in Romans. Psalm 9:12 says that there are times when the Lord arises to make inquisition for blood. How much more will this be true in the endtimes when He comes to judge the nations? Biblically, why would what the city of refuge was in Israel not be the seed form of what has been prophesied about in our day? Again I will say it on this post as well, God’s disclosure of Himself and His plan of redemption has always been progressive. This is just a progression of what He always intended it to be from the beginning in a more mature form.
This should be developed more, but I won’t be-labor it here. I’m just saying, I had always figured this was what the Lord ment by a city of refuge in the end times. If you could show me that prophecy Zach, where I could read it, that would be great.
Jam1000000amSat, 05 Jan 2008 02:11:40 +000008 5, 2007 at Saturday, January 5, 2008
Zack,
Thanks for the explanation of where you stand. I guess I’m just a little bit reciscent now to approach you on some things I’m wondering about, given your recent explanation on “How to Comment @ FN. What exactly is your definition of “ripping” IHOP? Any disagreement at all on where they stand? That would be disappointing indeed, as you are one of the few (so far) that has really addressed issues regarding our dialogue, and I have valued that honest input.
Jam1000000amSat, 05 Jan 2008 03:02:54 +000008 5, 2007 at Saturday, January 5, 2008
mbaker,
“ripping” IHOP I define as coming here with malicious intent, wanting to slander IHOP on this blog or forum.
I have yet to encounter that with you. your disagreements are welcome as long as they are presented with love and class.
bless you
.::zack
Jam1000000amSat, 05 Jan 2008 08:02:07 +000008 5, 2007 at Saturday, January 5, 2008
Haybark,
That’s awesome about God revealing that to you. I also had a similar thing happen to me before I came here. As did so many I know.
bless you,
.::Zack
Jam1000000amSat, 05 Jan 2008 08:03:57 +000008 5, 2007 at Saturday, January 5, 2008
Mbaker,
again you are welcome here, I have not felt like you rip IHOP, maybe a little to critical, but that I can handle. I appreciate that you are not about confrontation but finding clarity and truth. Clarity and truth I love to help people find.
blessings
.::zack
Jam1000000amSat, 05 Jan 2008 08:53:00 +000008 5, 2007 at Saturday, January 5, 2008
Thanks, Zack. We may not agree on everything that IHOP teaches but I certainly have no doubt that you are devoted to Christ first, as I am, and think clarity and truth presented with integrity go hand in hand.
When I have more time next week to delve more deeply into the intercession post with you. I’d like to address some things I’ve discovered regarding prayer, i.e. what it is and what it isn’t. Since I was in prayer ministry for over 25 years until I retired last year, it’s a subject that’s very close to my own heart as well.
Happy weekend.
Jpm1000000pmSat, 05 Jan 2008 22:15:25 +000008 5, 2007 at Saturday, January 5, 2008
Zach,
Thank you for the encouragment of sharing what you and others have experienced, I needed that. What is your thought on my understanding of the city of refuge, does it fit with what you have learned about it there, what otehrs have been discussing concerning it?
Jam1000000amSun, 06 Jan 2008 07:00:27 +000008 5, 2007 at Sunday, January 6, 2008
@mbaker,
thank you for you kind words. I believe you are devoted to Christ as well. Bless you.
@haybark,
Cites of refuge again are an interesting concept because they were a reality in Moses’ day, but there is no actual promise or mention of them being actual places in the future. You seem to have some personal revelation about them, as do I. I don’t think any of us will truly know the answer as to what they are until they are set up in those days. And again they might not get set up, but we can ask and hope.
The book of Revelation they are not mentioned. Most Saints are martyred. We see that in the 5th seal in Revelation 6. The only ones spared are the 144,000 which are Jews, elected to be spared.
Jam1000000amMon, 07 Jan 2008 07:23:09 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, January 7, 2008
JimB you out there? I’m curious as to what your thoughts are since it was your question. Did I answer your question?
Jam1000000amMon, 07 Jan 2008 08:19:35 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, January 7, 2008
(I was wondering about Jim myself) If Goeshen is the Paradigm for the “cities of refuge in the end times, wouldn’t if follow that the death angle could fly over it and if the blood be on the doorpost of the heart, it pass over- just in those few cities? I mean if it is waht I have thought it to be, a place of God’s manifest presence, what anti -christ force could penetrate that? I’ve had this vision form the Lord of our city ablaze in this golden fire of God’s manifest glory. I’m like running for this reality. I feel it again just writting about it.
Maybe it’s a vision of the millenium? because I have also gotten a quick glimps of the sky durring that time, a transparant golden like hue, completely clear of all demonic influence… it was absolutely amazing in it’s clarity.
Anyhow, I’m going to take the time to look through David’s stuff, hopefully his part will give me some more clarity.
Jpm1000000pmMon, 07 Jan 2008 18:06:11 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, January 7, 2008
Zack,
Thanks for taking the time to answer my question. You make me think these things through a bit more thoroughly as well.
First, I should address the issue of God’s sovereignty and prayer/intercession. You said:
“God is all sovereign. …He doesn’t need us. Yet that’s the glory of the gospel, He desires that we partner with him, to be with him.”
I believe I have stated this before, but likely not as clearly and emphatically as I should have:
I am a Calvinist. I believe in God’s absolute sovereignty over all, including the wills of men. I believe nothing happens apart from God’s predetermined plan. I believe no one hinders or turns back God (Job) through unbelief, lack of prayer or by any other means.
I also believe God has sovereignly ordained to realize much of His will via the prayers of His people. I believe prayer moves God, though I would say it moves Him to a place He had already determined to go. That He folds us into His sovereignty in this way truly is glorious.
I don’t think you and I are very far apart here. I nowhere meant to give the impression that I do not believe God is moved by prayer.
(John Piper preached on prayer two Sundays ago. You and I would find much to agree on here.)
—————-
On to my persisting issues:
“The purpose of IHOP is not to make Jesus come back faster. Our purpose is to fast and pray because we believe Jesus is coming back soon. (Again I speak for IHOP in that as well because it’s a public fact, but I am not an official spokesman nor can I be labeled as one.)
…
Do I or have I heard it preached at IHOP that we are praying for the purpose of bringing Jesus back faster? No. But IHOP and I do believe Jesus is coming back soon.”
I’m not sure this is a distinction with any difference. Perhaps, I again need to be a bit clearer. I recognize IHOP intercessors are not praying “to make Jesus come back faster”, but believe He is coming back soon (faster?) and this return is contingent upon prayer (contingent in the manner I would defend above). And not just any prayer – 24/7, Bridally Paradigm-ed prayer. You said:
“Our prayers fill the bowl not because He needs us, but because He wants us. (John 3:16; John17) Thus why the Bridal Paradigm is needed.”
24/7 prayer and the Bridal Paradigm are necessary to propel the end-times saints into the kind of prayer and holiness that will be required to usher in Christ’s Second Coming. This is exactly what Jennifer Roberts spoke of when I saw her at onething Minneapolis. I will concede that it is probably not your, Roberts’ or IHOP’s intent to portray 24/7 prayer or the Bridal Paradigm as a means of manipulating God. However, when these are lifted up as necessary, it inevitably gives the impression that if these are not followed (at least by a small vanguard of full-time intercessors), then Christ will not return.
“Creating a place on the Earth for the spirit of the Lord to dwell. Not saying that we need to reestablish the rabbinic tabernacle of David. But saying we need to create a place with in us for the Holy Spirit to rest. Christ is in us. The Spirit already abides in us, but by resting place I mean a place free of gossip and slander. A place free of lust and perversion. A place where the spirit can rest. The city of refuge is not a biblical quotation, but from a prophecy about cities of refuge being raised up at the end of the Age.”
To which prophecy do you refer? This drives to the heart of my problem with IHOP and other modern charismatic/prophetic ministries: they are driven, at least in part, by a gnostic understanding of Christianity and the Bible. No one outside this clique has any knowledge of the Bridal Paradigm, Cities of Refuge, the Joseph Company, Joel’s Army, Tabernacle of David… because they are essentially extra-biblical. They are wrapped in biblical language, but are really founded on extra-biblical, personal, divine revelation. If God hadn’t “spoken” to Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, etc., then none of the above concepts/paradigms would exist.
To get into this clique, one must have a similar special, divine, personal, extra-biblical revelation about these things. As you and Roberts have both stated, these things are essential to what “God is doing” in these “final days”. I believe you have stated elsewhere on your blog that you believe we are fast-approaching the eschaton, because God told you so.
But what about the rest of us – the 99.9% of believers who haven’t received these secret messages from God? When people accuse IHOP’rs and other prophetic/charismatic types of being elitist, I don’t think they necessarily mean it personally or individually, but corporately. The movement is definitionally elitist, because it hinges on personal, extra-biblical revelation from God. It is, in this sense, a gnostic elitism.
“…we need to create a place with in us for the Holy Spirit to rest.”
I honestly don’t know what that means. If I (or my family, local church, small group, etc.) need to be free of gossip, slander, lust and perversion in order for the “Holy Spirit to rest”, I am/we are in trouble. This smacks of a moral perfectionism I see in much modern charismatic/prophetic language. No one individual or community is or ever will be free of sin this side of eternity. We Christians, sinners all, are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance (Eph. 1), not because we cleaned house beforehand, but because God is gracious, merciful and good to His undeserving called-out ones.
Do you believe IHOP is a place free of gossip, slander, lust and perversion? I don’t believe you do, and don’t believe your point here was to say that you do. But, why say it at all then? What’s the point? I think this again drives to the perceived elitism – there seems to be the implication that the average Bible-believing Christian church/ministry does not strive for holiness in the same way IHOP does, because it is not devoted to 24/7 prayer and the Bridal Paradigm (and Joel’s Army, and the JoCo, and establishing Cities of Refuge, etc.). I know that’s not your intent, Zack, but I think it is an understandable perception taken by those on the outside. (I also understand IHOP leadership repeatedly states their mission is not for the whole Church, but a small troupe of intercessors. However, I think this only reinforces the perception of elitism. IHOP is not for everyone, but only a select few. It’s like the Navy Seals of Christian spirituality.)
Zack, please accept that I say all of the above out of a genuine concern and desire to understand more clearly, not a desire to be unnecessarily quarrelsome. I don’t doubt the genuineness of your faith, and I admire your zeal. I just believe it is a zeal that could be put to better use.
God Bless,
Jim B.
—————-
P.S. If you happen to read/listen to/watch Piper’s sermon on prayer, I believe he paints a much more biblical picture of 24/7 prayer. It is not the picture of an Intercessory Missionary, but of a common saint breathing prayer as a 24/7 lifestyle. Though I fall dreadfully short of this goal, it is my life’s aim in regard to prayer.
Jpm1000000pmMon, 07 Jan 2008 19:14:42 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, January 7, 2008
“…we need to create a place with in us for the Holy Spirit to rest.”
I haven’t had a whole lot of time to really take Zack’s posts into an an depth discussion, but I will soon, but that one made me wonder too.
Since we are indwelt by the Holy Spirit from the time we accept Christ as our Savior, and scripture already refers to our bodies as the temple of the Holy Spirit, I can’t find any scriptural backup for us needing to create another place within us for the Holy Spirit to rest.
The Holy Spirt is actually an active presence designed to do the following:
(1) Lead us to all truth
(2) Convict the world of sin
(3) Be our comforter and counselor
(4) Speak what Jesus tells Him
According to scripture what Jim said below is accurate:
“We Christians, sinners all, are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance (Eph. 1), not because we cleaned house beforehand, but because God is gracious, merciful and good to His undeserving called-out ones.”
Titus 3:3-7 bears this out:
” For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures, passing our days in malice and envy, heated by others and hating one another.”
“But when the goodness and loving kindness of God, our Savior appeared, he saved us, not because of works done in righteousness, but according to his own mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit, whom he poured out on us richly through Jesus Christ our Savior, so that being justified by his grace we might become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”
I don’t want to overwhelm you here, because Jim’s reply will give you much to reply to in turn, I’m sure, but did want to ask you to clarify where that teaching about the Holy Spirit comes from.
God bless.
This scripture speaks of the purification process, but it not of us, but of Christ.
For we ouselves
Jam1000000amTue, 08 Jan 2008 03:45:05 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, January 8, 2008
mbaker,
thanks for pointing me to this blog.
I’ll just copy and paste what I’ve stated: “Ephesians 1:13 and Galatians 3:2 speaks of the promised Holy Spirit that will dwell in every believer at salvation but IMO this is different than being “filled” with the Holy Spirit (Ephesians 5:18). Paul tells us that the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Ephesians 4:30) and quenched (1 Thessalonians 5:19) and it is sin that hinders us from experiencing the fullness of the Holy Spirit.”
^you said in response: “I just covered that comment about us providing a resting place for the Holy Spirit over on Zack’s blog. Not about the ‘filling” because that doesn’t really have anything to do with that statement.”
I think it has much to do with that statement. IMO a “resting place” is a place of undefiled worship and communion where the Holy Spirit is not grieved nor quenched.
^”This scripture speaks of the purification process, but it not of us, but of Christ.”
I think it’s both. Purification only happens when we actively partner with the grace of God.
See what kind of love the Father has given to us, that we should be called children of God; and so we are. The reason why the world does not know us is that it did not know him. Beloved, we are God’s children now, and what we will be has not yet appeared; but we know that when he appears we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he is. And everyone who thus hopes in him *purifies himself* as he is pure.
(1John 3:1-3)
Jam1000000amTue, 08 Jan 2008 03:48:48 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, January 8, 2008
btw mbaker and company,
i hope you all had a good holiday season. It’s great to finally be back in commish. Is this blog going to be the new stomping grounds as opposed to SOJ?
Jam1000000amTue, 08 Jan 2008 05:30:04 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Ortho,
You said:
“IMO a “resting place” is a place of undefiled worship and communion where the Holy Spirit is not grieved nor quenched.”
That’s a good ideal, but I don’t believe that would be possible for us imperfect humans to achieve this side of heaven, ortho, because we probably do that everyday, grieve or quench the Holy Spirit in some way, whether it’s known to us or not. The point is not for us to create a resting place for the Holy Spirit, but to abide in the Vine, as scripture instructs. To the extent we do that, we produce the fruit of the Spirit, one of which is peace. That is what brings joy to the Holy Spirit, We cannot produce that of our own volition, however, nor can we create a resting place within ourselves for the Holy Spirit. He already indwells us, and did when we accepted Christ to do the work in our inner man that Christ appointed Him to do, as I have listed above.
Being filled with the Holy Spirit such as happened in Acts is a whole different thing. That was to empower, not to make a resting place for the Holy Spirit within.
I’m not saying we should live like we want to with utter disregard for what we do. We are supposed to be pursuing a life of holiness which honors Christ and continues His work of bringing salvation to the lost.
As to your question about this being the new stomping ground. I post here, sometimes even though I don’t agree with all the teachings of IHOP, because I find Zack is at least willing to have a real two-way dialogue even though he belongs to IHOP.
There’s a lot to discuss in his post other than this particular issue, so I’m not going to get into it any deeper right now. I’ll got a lot of other things going on right now, so I won’t be able to post very much, but I’ll catch up when I can.
Besides, I want to see how Zack replies first to Jim B. so I can hear both sides.
God bless.
Jam1000000amTue, 08 Jan 2008 08:55:55 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, January 8, 2008
JimB,
Well that was the type of response I expected from you. (I mean that in a good way not sarcastically.) So let’s start with the purpose of the post.
You asked questions about IHOP’s and my view on intercession. Specifically in regards to God’s sovereignty, specifically if we are saying that we have the can make God do things, like come back sooner through prayer. Or in essence manipulate God.
I said prayer according the Word and the way I’ve heard IHOP and myself teach it is not biblically in danger of challenging God’s sovereignty.
Based on my presentation of prayer and God’s sovereignty you said: “I don’t think you and I are very far apart here. I nowhere meant to give the impression that I do not believe God is moved by prayer.”
So at that point I’m glad I was able to bring some clarity on Intercession, which was the entire point of the post.
No this brought about other questions from you based on my articulation. So let’s go through your points.
1. “24/7 prayer and the Bridal Paradigm are necessary to propel the end-times saints into the kind of prayer and holiness that will be required to usher in Christ’s Second Coming. This is exactly what Jennifer Roberts spoke of when I saw her at onething Minneapolis. I will concede that it is probably not your, Roberts’ or IHOP’s intent to portray 24/7 prayer or the Bridal Paradigm as a means of manipulating God. However, when these are lifted up as necessary, it inevitably gives the impression that if these are not followed (at least by a small vanguard of full-time intercessors), then Christ will not return.”
First, I would like to point out that you are asking me defend the impressions that you, and others are having by what we preach. That’s not fair nor will I defend your interpretations and “read-ins” to what we say. Sure scrutinize everyone’s preaching enough you are going to find at least some inconsistencies, yes even Piper. I don’t expect you to defend many of the impressions I and others have had about Calvinism. You know like, “God has already chosen who is and isn’t going to get saved. So in essence they are saying there is no need to share the gospel.” Or “Since they say God has already predetermined everything that I will do, and that has happened to me, then prayer isn’t necessary because I’d just be wasting my time asking, because he already has planed what I’m going to do.” I know Calvinist are not saying this, however those type of perceptions people have you and your doctrine people have about us. Instead of coming here and listening to what we say with an open heart (I’m not being emergent by saying this, my point is be open at first then search it out afterwards), not coming ready to combat everything said. I listen to John Piper weekly and have most of his books (In fact I’m reading “The future of Justification” right now. I have read all of Wayne Grudem’s books, and love Jonathan Edwards. I decided before I got combative about the few teachings, and rumors I heard, I would give it a chance to fully sink in before I started challenging it. I came away with some disagreements, but thankful for much of their insight, as it’s helped me in my walk and understanding of God. I still listen to Piper weekly and love it.
2. “This drives to the heart of my problem with IHOP and other modern charismatic/prophetic ministries: they are driven, at least in part, by a gnostic understanding of Christianity and the Bible. No one outside this clique has any knowledge of the Bridal Paradigm, Cities of Refuge, the Joseph Company, Joel’s Army, Tabernacle of David… because they are essentially extra-biblical. They are wrapped in biblical language, but are really founded on extra-biblical, personal, divine revelation. If God hadn’t “spoken” to Mike Bickle, Bob Jones, Paul Cain, etc., then none of the above concepts/paradigms would exist.”
First. Gnostic? Really Jim? Do you really want to through a biblically identified heresy at IHOP? Do you really think I or we who search out the Word constantly would be daft enough to Believe in a Gnostic reality? Shame on you, and absolutely in no way do we have anything to do with Gnosticism.
And Joel’s Army? How many times does IHOP have to renounce that before people finally believe us?
Second. Bridal Paradigm IHOP came up with this? Pretty sure the metaphor of Jesus being the bridegroom and the church being the bride has been a teaching not only through out church history, but the Old and New testament. In fact the book of Hosea is completely committed to that metaphor. I grew up in a Mega church, that has had absolutely no affiliation with Mike, or the so called K.C. prophets and I’ve been learning and hearing about this metaphor my whole life. In fact I think I first learned about form Oswald Chambers, when he talked about Jesus being the “lover of our souls”. Now the term “Bridal Paradim” is ours but it only describes what everyone has always preached.
I’ve read yours and Drew’s relentless and honestly unfair breakdown of Jen Robert’s talk at Onething in the cities. I believe most of your problem is the language of Song of Solomon being directed at the all sovereign God. However I will say that in no way do we paint a picture of Jesus being “desperate”, or “anemic” that would be another assumption that outsiders have made.
Let me quickly break it down for you.
Song of Solomon, we use the allegorical interpretation, though both it and the natural interpretation are valid. However the allegorical interpretation is only valid if it reflects NT truths, i.e. redemption, the cross.
NT testament foundational verses behind the “bridal paradigm”? John 3:16 “For God so loved the World that He sent is one and only son. John 17 “Father I desire greatly that they be with me where I am.” 1 John 4:7-21 “…We love Him because He first loved us…” Eph. 2:7 “So that in the coming age, he might show the immeasurable riches in kindness toward us.” I could go on and on with about 15-20 more verses. My question is, What is your problem with that? And How is that unique to IHOP? The “Bridal Paradigm” Message is God desires us. He cares about us. He isn’t a distant ruler, or King simply making decrees void of emotion. Our justification wasn’t just simply a part of a plan, but was his plan from the beginning because He loves us. Is that not the heart of the gospel? You were dead in your sins, sons and daughters of disobedience, fallen. Yet because God being rich in love made you alive when you were dead, raised you up and seated you with Christ? How is that message unique to IHOP? How is that not needed now and in the end of the age? I mean the message is the Misty Edwards song we sin at every conference:
“You owe me nothing I deserve hell, you owe me nothing, yet you’ve given me mercy./ I’ve been forgiven much, surely I will love much. For as far as the east is from the west that’s how far he has taken our transgressions from us.”
Or maybe Justin Rizzo’s song we sing every conference: “As for me I was dead in my transgressions/ as for me I was an object of your wrath, fully deserving of death, fully deserving of death/ but you saw me therebecause you’re rich in mercy, you saw me there because you’re rich in love/ And you made me alive when I was Dead/ You raised me up and seated me with Christ/ It’s by your grace that I am saved/ and it’s through faith, It’s the very gift of God.”
The bridal paradigm IS NOT about making Jesus your spiritual fiancée or spiritual boyfriend. Mike has even personally told me that that is a perversion of the Word, and the gospel. People that go there with it are wrong to do so.
-If teaching that God Loves you, desires you to be with him, therefore he sent his son as a propitiation for our sins, so that we can be with him in eternity is not a must for the body of Christ, then what is?
3. “But what about the rest of us – the 99.9% of believers who haven’t received these secret messages from God? When people accuse IHOP’rs and other prophetic/charismatic types of being elitist, I don’t think they necessarily mean it personally or individually, but corporately. The movement is definitionally elitist, because it hinges on personal, extra-biblical revelation from God. It is, in this sense, a gnostic elitism.”
Who is calling us elitist? I mean I haven’t heard that. I can only tell you that we are not. Oh and Gnostic elitism again? Really? Labeling us that based on yours and others impressions is not being concerned about bout gaining more understanding, that is blatant accusation. Mike and everyone I know here, and everything we do is so far from “elitist” that I refuse to respond to it, because it’s ridiculous. Yes only small percentages are called to be fulltime intercessors. In the same way only a small number are called to be apostles or prophets. Our goal is to raise up those called to fast and pray and help equip those who aren’t to go back to where they are from with an understanding of the Word, Christ, and prayer. Sure people think things, but neither is that our attitude, it’s not even a thought. Sorry you judge us as so, but we are not. Hope you can take my word for that.
4. “If I (or my family, local church, small group, etc.) need to be free of gossip, slander, lust and perversion in order for the “Holy Spirit to rest”, I am/we are in trouble. This smacks of a moral perfectionism I see in much modern charismatic/prophetic language. No one individual or community is or ever will be free of sin this side of eternity. We Christians, sinners all, are sealed with the promised Holy Spirit as a guarantee of our inheritance (Eph. 1), not because we cleaned house beforehand, but because God is gracious, merciful and good to His undeserving called-out ones.”
AMEN! That is what I and IHOP preach. Moral Perfectionism isn’t that make the grace of God void? I believe Paul says in Galations 2:21 “I do not frustrate the grace of Christ, for if righteousness could be gained by the law then Christ died for nothing.” We teach that all of the time. So don’t understand where you get that.
5. “Do you believe IHOP is a place free of gossip, slander, lust and perversion? I don’t believe you do, and don’t believe your point here was to say that you do. But, why say it at all then?”
If you don’t believe that’s what I meant then why do you bring it up at all? It’s not what I meant. Of course the Holy Spirit lives in us at justification. That’s biblical. Who is contesting that? I was simply referencing Ps. 132:3-5 in order to help explain to you what haybark probably meant when he said what he said. We see plenty of ways in the NT the Spirit’s move in power is quenched by unrighteousness. No I’m not free of those things, but you better believe in the grace of God I live to walk in righteousness. That would be what is called sanctification. Another Christianity 101 principle that is taught often at IHOP.
From what I can tell Jim, is most of your questions, are based on perceptions, and impressions. Not fact. They are based on reading-in to everything we say or do, as opposed to actually checking it all out. Sure we aren’t perfect, who is saying we think so? In fact Mike makes it a point most every week to say the following.
1. We don’t fully understand these things, we only know a little bit, but I’m sure in years to come we will continue to grow in understanding. Proverbs 2 seek understanding, search of it like hidden treasure.
2. He always says, Don’t ever take anything I say or that is said from this pulpit to heart blindly. Go take the notes, and pit them against the Word to see if they match up.
6. Do I believe it’s the End of the Age? Yes. Do you have to believe it is? No. Do you and I and everyone else in the faith need to be watching and waiting no matter the time? Yes. I think that’s pretty clear in the NT since it’s mentioned in about 10 other places. I’ll spare you the references.
I hope that helps you understand a bit. I will ask you to leave unfounded accusations like eluding that we are apart of Gnosticism out of our conversations, because it’s simply not true.
Do we have some extra biblical things, sure. But they are, and have never been exalted anywhere above scripture; they are only guides that point to scripture. Plus it’s not like Calvinist don’t have some philosophical, or extra biblical things they abide by either. But I’ll never bring um up because it’s neither here nor there, as they are also not exalted above scripture.
In closing, may the Lord bless you and your family. I truly mean that.
To the rest (including my self) on this thread for here on out, post point by point. So that the comments are like my 4 pager here. I wanted to respond aptly to Jim, However if everyone does, it just gets tiresome to read. So I close that by apologizing for the length in comment here.
Blessings all
Jam1000000amTue, 08 Jan 2008 09:02:56 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Ortho,
Welcome, read comment, ask questions with the “How to Comment @ FN” page in mind.
But to answer your question, this blog is not a new stomping ground for those at SOJ. I know and love Drew, but I do not wish to have that type aggression (referring to the commentors there, not Drew) directed here. If that happens I will sadly shut my blog down.
The purpose of this blog is not to be a IHOP apologetic, or even primarily a place to discuss strictly theology. It’s a place where I give my commentary on life, and learn how to articulate things, and update people not in my city on how I’m doing. I don’t mind discussions like this, but if my blog turns into only that, then I will shut it down.
much love to you all!
.::zack hensley
Jpm1000000pmTue, 08 Jan 2008 20:05:52 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Zach, I’m glad I waited for you to respond and didn’t take the dog by the ears again.
Thanks for your time and effort you put into this blog, I am learning things on several different levels just form the activity, not to mention content.
Blessings,
John
Jpm1000000pmTue, 08 Jan 2008 20:37:46 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, January 8, 2008
Zack,
I don’t have time right now to address everything in your last comment, but would like to clarify a two:
(1)
“First, I would like to point out that you are asking me defend the impressions that you, and others are having by what we preach.”
My bad. I have gotten in trouble before for using words like “seem”, “appear” and “perceive” too often. Apparently (there I go again…), I have yet to learn my lesson.
I’m not in your head or heart, Zack. I don’t know your intentions or motives, and don’t want to appear to presume that I do. So, I often use words like “seem” when I probably shouldn’t. I believe these problems I have addressed are more reality than perception, but want to leave the door open for clarification.
Also, when I speak of IHOP “seeming” to be this or that, I try not to refer to “logical” conclusions to a particular theology or idea, but to the theologies and ideas themselves. You cited Calvinism as an example of this kind of argumentation, and I think it is apropos. I agree it would be inappropriate to accuse Calvinists of being non-missional/evangelical, because of their belief in predestination, because (1) it is historically inaccurate and (2) it is explicitly not taught by Calvinists. (It is unfortunately taught by some hyper-Calvinists.) Though some may logically deduce from a particular (true) doctrine other (false) doctrines, it does not follow that the former necessarily leads to the latter. I try to grant the same courtesy to IHOP. If you think I have not done so, please tell me where and how.
(2)
“Gnostic? Really Jim? Do you really want to through a biblically identified heresy at IHOP? …Shame on you…”
gnos•tic
1. pertaining to knowledge.
2. possessing knowledge, esp. esoteric knowledge of spiritual matters.
3. (initial capital letter ) pertaining to or characteristic of the Gnostics.
When I said “in part” and used the lower-case g, I did so intentionally. I do not believe IHOP’rs or Charismatics in general believe in a demiurge or dualism. I have repeatedly (both publically and privately) stated that I believe you and the average IHOP’r are sincere believers – true Christians. I do not believe IHOP is promulgating the damnable heresy of Gnosticism (capital G).
However, I did intend to level the second definition at IHOP. (Incidentally, this second definition is derived from the first, because the Gnostics did believe one had to have a special, extra-biblical, spiritual knowledge.) I would still maintain that IHOP would not exist were it not for personal, extra-biblical, divine revelations. I’ve read and listened to enough IHOP material, including Bickle’s Prophetic History, to know that. I’ve also known enough people involved with IHOP and similar ministries (former and current) to know that it is difficult to continue within these ministries without such revelations.
Now that I’ve clarified my use of the word, I think you can have your shame back. ; )
There’s more I would like to address later.
Until Then… God Bless
Jam1000000amWed, 09 Jan 2008 00:39:39 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, January 9, 2008
Zack,
You said regarding the Sign of Jonah web-site:
I know and love Drew, but I do not wish to have that type aggression (referring to the commentors there, not Drew) directed here. If that happens I will sadly shut my blog down”
Hmmm….I think since you were taking Jim B to task for a blanket use of the the word “gnostic” and other things, I have to wonder if that isn’t a case of the pot calling the kettle black. Am I or we aggressive because I/we I don’t agree with all of IHOp’s teachings, but at least have the decency to put our concerns out there honestly for all to see, and give others a chance to air their side? To say that someone is aggressive when they disagree with you and right on when they do agree is somewhat of a blanket judgement as well in my humble opinion.
This dichomoty puzzles me.
Jam1000000amWed, 09 Jan 2008 01:32:59 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, January 9, 2008
Oh Lord have mercy!
mbaker, you get defensive so easily. I not speaking you, JimB, or ortho. I’m saying I don’t want the masses at soj, who are not asking questions like you and JimB , they are stateing accusations, like we are a cult, influenced by demons Or we are manipulating people’s lives. Perposterus things that are so untrue, and unfounded they aren’t worth talking about. If those types of commentors come here I’ll shut it all down. I don’t have to type to deal with those kinds of accusations. Somthing in 1 Timothy about that.
bless you
Jam1000000amWed, 09 Jan 2008 01:41:45 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, January 9, 2008
I have to agree with Zack here. If he doesn’t want the torrent of comments/commenters that SOJ gets (some of which do cross the line of Christian charity) on this particular topic, that’s his choice and it’s his blog.
I think Zack would recognize that some get nasty on both sides of this issue. It gets difficult to moderate that kind of thing when your blog transforms into a forum. I wouldn’t want my personal blog to become that either.
Jam1000000amWed, 09 Jan 2008 02:06:13 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, January 9, 2008
Neither would I, which is exactly the point why I moderate the comments on my blo in advance. Sorry you both missed what I was saying, that we need to be careful of the blanket persoanal accusatory terms we use regarding each other, and stick to the issues. If we all did obviously that it wouldn’t be an issue at all.
Goodbye and God bless.
Jam1000000amWed, 09 Jan 2008 03:40:49 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, January 9, 2008
JimB
I’m on my way to a meeting…Tuesday is my busiest day. But I have one question for you.
What is the purpose, or better said what conclusion do you hope to come to in our interactions on this (these) issues?
I ask because I’m not Calvinist, neither is IHOP. On the basis of those views we aren’t going to agree.
We are Pre-millennial/ post-tribers. I’m assuming you are A-millennial since most Calvinists are.
Therefore we are already going into this at an impass when it comes to eschatology, prayer, and sovereignty. So why belabor an argument that neither one of us are going to budge on.
Thus my above question.
@mbaker got it, glad we understand now.
Jam1000000amWed, 09 Jan 2008 11:13:27 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, January 9, 2008
You know Jim,
As I sit in the prayer room right now, singing with 350 young adults who are up at 4:58am praying for the salvation of the nation of Israel, Standing with tears in their eyes singing “Our God Reigns” over and over again. Not to mention I just came from a meeting with one of the groups I lead. They are pursuing lives of holiness and sharing the gospel. 5 people this week left behind the lives the were previously living steeped in drugs, and drug pushing because of the prayer and sharing of the gospel by them. The little group I lead are going after the knowledge and understanding of God with everything they have. I also met tonight, with 3 kids who a few months ago were in gangs, committing violent acts of crime, and countless other things. They have left those lives and are in fast pursuit of God as I help take them through their Christology notes, and studies on Justification
See I hear and read the concerns, assumptions, and quibbles brought by you and others. Assumptions that we are elitist, that we are not preaching the gospel, that we are false teachers preaching false doctrine. I just don’t see it anywhere here. Could we focus on the basics of the gospel more? yes, we are working on it. Could we do things better? yes. But we aren’t perfect. But the leadership is humble and spending every waking hour searching scripture, fasting and praying. And that’s not talk it’s real. When Mike says he does the prayer room full time, he does, I’ve watched him for the last 6 years come in a 5:30am sit in the front row. and pray. When I come in at 10pm he’s just leaving. I’m not saying this to brag or boast in anyway. I’m just trying to say that we really live what we preach. Or at least try to in the grace of God.
I understand you wish to find understanding, something I hope to help with.
If it’s fruit you want, it’s seems to be abundant to me. I encounter lives changed every day by the leadership in the word mike and IHOP has given.
really that’s my peace, I love Jesus with all my heart, as do the people here, as you have stated in the past… so why belabor minute assumptions with what you and others perceive us to believe?
p.s. sorry if I was too harsh earlier… indeed you can have your shame back
Jpm1000000pmWed, 09 Jan 2008 13:26:03 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, January 9, 2008
I figure you no what i meant… but i mistyped… I’ll take the shame back. No more shame on you… typing on my phone in a hurry does make for a few errors…
Jpm1000000pmWed, 09 Jan 2008 17:53:10 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, January 9, 2008
Zack,
Some of your above comments drive me to another issue (one which I believe is related to my initial questions). You said:
“What is the purpose, or better said what conclusion do you hope to come to in our interactions on this (these) issues?
I ask because I’m not Calvinist, neither is IHOP. On the basis of those views we aren’t going to agree.
We are Pre-millennial/ post-tribers. I’m assuming you are A-millennial since most Calvinists are.
so why belabor minute assumptions with what you and others perceive us to believe?”
You know full well (or should) that my (and others’) issue with IHOP and similar ministries is not that they are Arminian Premillennialists. I’m sure you’re aware that many of IHOP’s critics are both Arminian and Premillennialist. It seems these kinds of comments only obscure the real issues (not “minute assumptions”).
You also said:
“Bridal Paradigm IHOP came up with this? Pretty sure the metaphor of Jesus being the bridegroom and the church being the bride has been a teaching not only through out church history, but the Old and New testament.”
Again, obfuscation. If you (like Roberts) are going to try and tell everyone here that Charles Spurgeon and Augustine believed in the Bridal Paradigm in the same way IHOP teaches it, then you are exposing either a stupendous ignorance or a befuddling dishonesty. And I don’t think you’re an ignorant guy, Zack.
Do you deny a significant difference between viewing Song of Songs as a general allegory to Christ and the Church, and obsessing over the book as a key to everything else, hyper-analyzing every word – down to the link of a necklace? Do you not see the significance of elevating this Old Testament love song beyond simple allegory (which has no Biblical justification – please explain how John 3:16 has ANYTHING to do with the Bridal Paradigm) to a filter through which the rest of Scripture is drawn?
I discussed much of this in my posts on Roberts’ message here in Minneapolis. You said I treated her unfairly. I would like to know how and where. That may help in further conversations on this issue.
God Bless
P.S. I didn’t address the awesomeness of your recent prayer meeting, because of reasons I have mentioned to you in private. Did you intend for that to be a conversation-stopper?
Jpm1000000pmWed, 09 Jan 2008 20:53:59 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, January 9, 2008
Jim,
Would you guys please quit straining at gnats? Your going on about semantics. In your quest to be biblical, have you considered Jesus admonition? “Ye shall know them by thier fruits?”
Zach is trying to appeal to you on this level. I am just a third party to all of this, and probably not too wise by putting in my two cents, but really. Your soo concerned about the terminology they use, you not observing that the work of the gospel is being done and the lost are being saved, and discipled. I mean, it’s not a demonic spirit delivering these people from violent aggression, drugs and gangs.
Funny thing: The Lord has made the gosple with so much grace, it works in the hands of imperfect people, with imperfect concepts. It’s far too easy to swallow the camel of suspicion & judgment than it is to strive for the unity of the faith. Zach has been more than fair and open with many of you that have had some good questions. His answers have been forth right, honest and biblical. He has not violated any of the candinal doctrines of the faith, and has tryed to preserve unity. But for some reason it is more important for you, and the others, to try and find guilt adn wrong in your brother and the ministry he serves. Why? Are we not all on the same team? Isn’t Christ our head?
It has been well said that there is two ministries going on before the thone of God everyday. The ministry of intercession, adn the ministry of accusation. The bible tells this is a true reality. It says, Jesus doth ever liveth to make intercession for the saints, and that the devil is the accusor of the bretheren. It is our nature to become an accusor, but it is supernatural to be a true intercessor. If our body be broken, pray for it to be mended. Humility reconizes it’s own weakness and has compassion on those who struggle. The heart of the intercessor cries out for these.
So please, if you see your brother is hurting, try praying for him, if he is in error, seek that the Lord show Him the light. But let us not, please, let us not be the accusor and bring disscord among the family of God. Let’s consider the office we choose to hold, and let love guide us.
Jam1000000amThu, 10 Jan 2008 02:48:43 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, January 10, 2008
What does obfuscation mean?
Did I ever say the bridal paradim was preached by spurgeon and agustine?
do we have material breaking down song of solomon? yes it’s called a commentary, all commentaris break down every verse.
I think I answered your questions. You just don’t beleive my answers. If i’m not ignorant like you say, the only other option is I’m lying, which I’m not.
It’s been a good dialouge though, thanks for the questions they challenged me. I think it’s safe to say this has gone away from your initial question, and the post I wrote to answer you. According to you I answered your questions, and we aren’t far off on our veiw of intercession.
So with that bless you and I’m praying for you and your family. Be praying for us that the holy spirit would give us revelation.
.::zack
Jpm1000000pmThu, 10 Jan 2008 14:27:25 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, January 10, 2008
Haybark,
Part of the problem, Haybark, is that folks like you seem to believe you can quell an argument by claiming it is gnat-straining and accusing the opposition of devilish accusation (ironic, no?). It may be gnat-straining to YOU, but that does not make it so for others.
Satan does not accuse the brethren of false doctrine, but of sin. Like other similar texts, charismatics (and others) misuse this verse. It is sinful to judge or condemn a brother of sister in Christ of sin, when all of us stand equally condemned of sin. (Like the Pharisee who prays, “Lord thank you that I am not like that sinner.”) It is not sinful, but repeatedly obliged by the NT writers, to defend truth and expose falsehood.
And fruit is a tricky thing. I could show you seeming “fruit” at your local synagogue, mosque, Mormon temple, etc. That is not to say I don’t believe there is legitimate Holy Spirit-inspired fruit going on at IHOP. I just don’t believe fruit in some areas justifies wrong doctrine in others. I don’t doubt Jim Bakker’s ministry was seeing some genuine fruit before he was busted. Bakker later said he didn’t think he was a true Christian at that time. So, do we justify all the bad teaching and charlatanism that went on, because there was some fruit?
Zack,
While I think my comments, in their entirety, are more pertinent to my initial questions than you’ll probably admit, I’ll agree that this conversation has likely run its course. See you next time.
God Bless
P.S. You (and Roberts) are essentially saying Spurgeon and Augustine believed (I never said preached) in the Bridal Paradigm as IHOP teaches it when you say, “Bridal Paradigm IHOP came up with this? Pretty sure the metaphor of Jesus being the bridegroom and the church being the bride has been a teaching not only through out church history…” Spurgeon and Augustine are examples of folks in Church history who read Song of Songs in a generally allegorical way. It is pure obfuscation to imply (or directly say, as Roberts did regarding Spurgeon) that this historical view is basically the same as the Bridal Paradigm.
(Sorry, but I couldn’t resist trying to have the last word. It’s in my accusing, gnat-straining nature.)
; )