So I’m going to come out of the closet, the skeptics closet that is. I’m a non-Charismatic in a Charismatic world. What do I mean by that? Where I love prophecy, and do have prophetic moments where God has spoken. I believe in the gifts in a very real way. In fact I love praying in tongues and love listening for the Holy Spirit’s voice… I just am not very “charismatic” about it. So when I hear Todd Bentley is having revival in Lakeland Florida, and hear and see people coming back healed, and have a real heart change in their gratefulness for the blood of Christ, I both cringe and rejoice.
Honestly the same thing happened to me a year ago when Bill Johnson came to one of our conferences. I was actually on a camera helping broadcast the conference. One of my friends Heath gets healed. I can’t deny it because I was on camera 2 zooming in on his leg as it happened. Plus I saw him later after the conference. My happiness for seeing a healing happened, while skepticism occurred because I didn’t agree with what Bill was saying. Mahesh Chavda comes through IHOP 2 years ago, and I left the auditorium because I couldn’t handle the message. Not because it was so bad, I just didn’t know what he was talking about. I had set up the room before hand, and had been helping out with the conference so I was there the whole time. I say that because when I came back, Mahesh was singing on stage. Then the most offensive thing in the world happened to me. Gold dust began to fall from the ceiling. Gold dust, on everyone. The room wasn’t even in a weired yelling, barking, manifesting state. In fact everyone was standing with hands high just worshiping… and gold dust fell!?!? I know that it wasn’t a trick because I would have to have been in on it, as I was helping with the service, and would have seen someone plant gold dust on the ceiling. Despite what people may think that kind of stuff never happens around IHOP. So for me it was a shock.
Now I hear that Todd Bentley is having revival. See I pray for revival everyday, but because Todd is weird my
skepticism grows. I want the things of Christ, I want many to know the prefect love of Christ. I want people to know the power of His resurrection and how its that same power that sustains us until the day of His coming. I want the gospel preached in downtown Kansas city where I know hundreds in prostitution and drug dealing. I so greatly want to see their hearts turned to Christ and to that end I labor. But instead revival is in Lakeland? Todd Bentley?? The guy with all the weird tattoos and piercings? A guy who mentions offensive things like renewing the calling of William Branum, who was a known and is accepted widely, even by those here as a total heretic? There is something not right here.
What’s not right however is with me. Instead of rejoicing and glorifying God for the great things happening, I discredit them because they don’t line up with the way I think things should happen. Because they don’t line up with my doctrine. Does not God heal for his glory? Do these things not happen so that Christ can be exalted? Sure men take some credit and do it wrong but are they to be infallible when I’m not? I have to say I can do nothing BUT rejoice in what is happening in Lakeland. Sure Todd Bentley is weird, and I don’t agree with a lot of his message, but I don’t agree with a lot of things. Right now one thing is undeniable to me as I watch this thing live on the Web, and hear the personal testimonies from people close to me, God is having revival in Lakeland. In fact I may even drive down there with my buddy Brent next weekend, just to kick my skepticism in the face. Plus I’m a show me guy. I got to see it for myself, not just hear about it.
Did you know someone got raised from the dead last night? I know someone who was there. People are getting healed from long held diseases, and have had doctors confirm the healing. Friends I know even.
I don’t want to be found judging what God is doing. The fruit I see in these people’s lives is glory to God. I see them beholding and blessing the Lord because of what is happening. Do I understand it? no. But do I have to? Plus the Word does say in Mark 16 that these are the signs that follow those who believe: “they will lay their hands on the sick and they will recover.”
Bless Todd Bentley, Bless those in Lakeland Florida. I pray that the Lord continues to give him a spirit of wisdom and revelation, that they would know the hope of which Christ was called. I pray for all those touched by the Lord in healing and salvation that He would complete the work he has started in them. That they would be counted worthy of His calling and that the grace and peace of Christ would sustain them until the end. amen
67 Comments
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 14:32:02 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Zach,
Great post, and needed. Too many times we only want God to move in a way that’s pleasing to us.
Being “out here” in the real world, I hear similar things said about IHOP. What are those guys doing? Why do we have to do it there way? All that sing and “chanting….”
It’s offensive to people. I’ve sung Misty songs and been told how unbiblical they were.
But we have to know the truth. We have to discern the spirit of the prophet. Todd, while he doesn’t look like the typical pastor, is really not all that weird.
As far as renewing the William Branum anointing, that shouldn’t be too strange to you. IHOP is a similar thing with the mystics and the monastic movement, right? And Lou wrote, “Redigging the wells of revival.”
Some times, it’s perspective.
We are going over on Friday. I didn’t want to go at first because one, I hate the lines. Two, I know many people go only because of the anointing. But, watching the meetings on TV last night, I felt the presence of the Lord. I knew I wanted to be there to bring it back to my city and church.
One sure fire way to bring revival to those down and outers you want to touch is by praying for them and having them set free from drugs, alcohol, abuse, and sexual sin!
Hugs! Rachel
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 14:35:35 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
This is an excellent subject of conversation. There are several things here that I have been mulling over in recent months. Funny that you would mention Bill Johnson. I have found glaring error in what he and his ministry teaches. It has me at arms when some close friends cling to the ministry for the manifestations of healing. I think much of his teaching is very dangerous for the body at large because he denies the sovereignty of God in all aspects of life, denying that God allows anything “bad” to happen to the believer. And he denies the need to “know” about the end times or to even worry about them, or that they are even close. Those two things together alarm me as I see it as a set up to destroy people’s faith when the shaking comes in earnest, as I feel it is beginning to now.
Saying that, I have to also say this, I believe that Bill and his ministry have a true impartation from the throne of God and the healings are from the Holy Spirit. But, this dose not endorse the message. This has been a fatal error of many of the revivalist of the latter rain revival, and is given to us once again to remind us the IMPORTANCE of sound doctrine to under-gird any move of God we are given to shepherd. I truly believe that the Lord is giving us a sound warning in this arena when we see the destructive results of such belief in the midst of troubled times. We will see this played out soon.
I understand your stand offishness a little better now. But the thing with Todd Bently and others who will come like him, I believe that the Lord is packaging this revival in such a way as to offend the natural mind of men. We are coming to a time when a harvest will be reaped that will be filled with Todd Bently’s and others more outlandish than Him, and the Lord will be well pleased to use them in great power, even in thier spiritual infancy. He is preparing His people for this, and wanting to offend us. He did so in the gospel on many occasions, like in John 6. The most repulsive thing to a Jew would be to offer a rare steak to them, or any meat that wasn’t completely cooked- no blood. But Jesus takes it pushes it to a completely ridiculous level and tells them that they must eat his flesh and drink His blood or they couln’t have any part with Him.
Well, you know the result, many turned and walked with Him no more. He turns to the disciples and says, “will yo leave me also?” In thier reply, you can tell that tehy really didn’t understand a thing He said and were probably offended to some degree themselves, but did not turn away. My Point? Only the truly hungry for God adn His manifestation in the earth, in whatever form itr comes, will recieve what He wants to give in this hour. He will offend the natural sensibilities to get the heart of men. He only wants to entrust His true rices to these anyway. To the heart people, not the heady type. This intellectualy driven people who have no real heart for intimate relationship with the Lord will not be entrusted with this move.
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 15:35:09 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Haybark,
I can certainly agree with much of what you say, up to the part about Todd Bentley, however I disagree with the conclusion you have reached about God:
” He will offend the natural sensibilities to get the heart of men. He only wants to entrust His true rices to these anyway. To the heart people, not the heady type. This intellectualy driven people who have no real heart for intimate relationship with the Lord will not be entrusted with this move.”
God does not separate the “heart” people from the “head” people, but the sheep from the goats. That is referring to believers and non-believers, not thinkers and non-thinkers. He tells us to love Him with all we’ve got, including our minds. I see loving Him with our minds just as important in these days of growing apostasy because we will need all our senses finely tuned to discern what is of Him and what isn’t, and every bit of God-given common sense we have to deal with it,
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 15:58:04 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Sure loving him with are minds is important, but we have biblical presidence that God uses foolish things to confound the wise.
heart people aren’t mind people. mind people tend not to be heart people. It’s all at the same time. In the same way you want to emphasize one you can’t neglect the rest. All have equal value.
Which why in the wisdom of a scholar, we must maintain a child’s faith.
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 16:41:28 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Seeing the need for intellectual knowldge is not the issue here, if you understand teh first part of my post. But there is this overweening of intelectualism that trys to control the relationship it has with the Lord to hold it to certain parameters thta will not threaten the status quo of thier predetermined understanding of what and who God is.
This typically comes as a result of people who refuse to lose their lives in the gospel. They refuse the death to their earthly lives. So they construct these neat little theological edifaces, They live behind it’s high walls, and have all kinds of opinions for those who have a differing veiw.
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 16:47:15 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
word haybark
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 17:13:16 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Dude, Justin is singing “there is no common sense in faith” in the PR right now. How cool it that?
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 17:18:48 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
ha! I love Justin!
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 17:19:25 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Zack,
Granted, we are all different in our approaches and personalities as individuals.
Some are more emotionally inclined than others, some are more intellectually inclined, and some are more practically inclined in our faith, as well. I just don’t think we Christians need to give other folks the impression that our minds aren’t as valuable to the Lord as any other part of what He has created about us to worship Him in faith with. Just because I’m a person of faith, doesn’t mean that I suddenly have to become a mindless robot to please God.
If Adam and Eve, for example, had used their heads to think about the enormity of what they were doing, mankind wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in in the first place. Satan would love to see that kind of mindless disregard for God’s instructions happen to all Christians.
I posit to you that the example Haybark used was not because the Pharisees were using their heads, but because it was actually their hearts which were not open to Jesus.
My point is that the head and the heart are not mutually exclusive in God’s view of us, any more than ours should be of Him. You love Carrie with all your heart, for instance, but you use your mind to figure out how you are going to go about planning your wedding, how you will support her, and right now, how to remodel that kitchen. Although it is your heart feelings that drive your decisions, if your decisions were not mindful-like for instance if you and Carrie were planning to live in a crack house – you would still be people of faith (presumably!) but you would not be a person of faith who was properly using his head. God wouldn’t look very kindly on you (and neither would I or your mama) if you didn’t use your mind as well as your heart to think about what is best for you and Carrie.
I certainly think while God does use foolish things to confound the wise (those are folks wise in themselves, we have to remember He was talking about), that doesn’t mean He will reject the thinkers of this world because they use their heads in their walk with Christ, as well as their hearts.
Why on earth would anyone think that God would reject a person who was doing exactly what Jesus said was the greatest commandment:
“You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind. This is the great and first commandment.” (Matthew 22:37-38 ESV)
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 17:59:44 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
mbaker you must have misunderstood what I said. I only said that they are both JUST AS important.
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 18:24:14 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Zack,
Yes, we both agree they are just as important.
It was the statement that Haybark made that I referenced in my first comment that I was expanding upon, that I don’t think agrees with the word of God. I was just using you guys as a close to home example that folks on this blog could identify with.
Hope that clears it up.
Someone over on the greycoats also published a letter from Andrew Strom regarding the revival and Todd Bentley that you might find interesting, in light of your post.
God bless.
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 18:56:24 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
don’t know if anyone mentioned this article yet
http://www.charismamag.com/news/archives/042208d.html
last statement in the article
Bentley announced Friday the revival would continue daily through at least May 4. He also said he believes the same revival will hit Kansas City, Mo., next.
I hope I don’t get in trouble for this–I was at IHOP a few years ago and we prayed for someone from a childhood education group called Charisma (don’t know if it’s the same as the journal publisher). They prayed for a representative from that group. I felt prompted and confirmed to go and join the prayer for him. On the way up to the front I saw a copy of Charisma on one of the chairs. He was surrounded by a group of women, I think. I reached over and touched him near the shoulder. Later he found me and said it felt so hot that he was tempted to move away from me. I didn’t feel anything except it did seem that I was being directed as I said to pray.
Have a nice day
John Paul Fullerton
j-fullerton@tamu.edu
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 19:04:07 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Thank you John. Do i know you and just don’t recognize the name?
I believe revival will hit K.C. soon. Which is why I want my heart ready.
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 20:18:09 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Hi Zack, thank you for the note! We have not met. I’ve been reading some of the other IHOP sites and have seen your name and visited your site before. Today Google Reader suggested your site and I saw you were talking about the Florida revival so I wanted to respond!
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 21:22:35 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Stumbled over your blog and appreciate your honesty on the subject. Let me preface this by saying I very much support and admire the ministry and message of IHOP and many others associated with the prophetic/intercessory movement. And I wholeheartedly agree God uses the foolish and weak things of the world to shame those who are wise and strong ( 1 Cor. 1). I likewise believe in the full gifting of the Spirit for today and pray for revival over America everyday.
But the issue that has torn me while watching the Revival on God TV recently was this: Todd gives an altar call so any of the lost who don’t know God can recieve Christ. A couple dozen come to the stage and the “gospel” Todd shares with them has no mention of sin, the cross, or the resurecction of Jesus Christ. There is a word about being delivered from sickness and addictions and then he gets them to repeat a prayer for the Holy Spirit to come down so they could get zapped (my interpretation). He then lays hands “BAM!” and most get slained.
Where’s Jesus Christ and Him crucified (! Cor. 2:2)? Speaking of foolishness, where’s the foolishness of the cross in this gospel (1 Cor. 1:18)?
How can any revival happen without first the unsaved being drawn by the Holy Spirit to meet their Savior at the terrifying, beautiful cross?
Am I being overly critical or is this a legitimate concern?
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 21:53:04 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
How can any revival happen without first the unsaved being drawn by the Holy Spirit to meet their Savior at the terrifying, beautiful cross?
EXACTLY! AMEN!
Jpm4000000pmThu, 24 Apr 2008 22:09:12 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, April 24, 2008
Brian,
no your concerns are the only reason I balk at a full endorsment. Also why I want to go down there this weekend and see for myself.I never want to pass judgment on something I haven’t experianced.
I want to beleive all things and be quick to rejoice with my brothers and sisters who are covered under the same blood. I also want to be wise. It’s a hard balance, so for now I pray for them and ask God to glorify His Son, and send revival.
Without Christ, without the cross, without the ressurection we have no gospel.
I want to hear more, because I have heard people coming back talking about Todd mentioning the blood and the cross. Its hard to tell from the outside, tuning in here and there. I want to go there and worship, rejoice, and then if Christ is not mentioned, if the cross is not mentioned in getting people saved, then I’ll rethink calling it a revival.
Jam4000000amFri, 25 Apr 2008 00:28:42 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, April 25, 2008
Zack,
Please drive carefully, my young brother, and please pray for real Godly discernment (as I will for you) as to whether this is a real revival or the lying signs and wonders that scripture speaks of. We cannot be too careful nowadays, or let what we want so badly influence us unduly. I have seen much of both of both in my 66 years, and I urge you to be very careful and objective in your judgement of this ministry, by avoiding the tendency toward pragmatism.
God speed.
Jam4000000amFri, 25 Apr 2008 06:02:52 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, April 25, 2008
Zack, it might be great to hear a blog from the meeting, and your heart after the weekend. What do you think? it would be good follow up for this post. A friend of mine From Tasmania, Australia is flying out there as we speak. he has a layover in Detroit on the return on the 6th and I will be seeing him for a few hours at which time I will get his first hand account of things. (And hopefully a Wales type of situation. people went there and carried it where ever they went. Who knows, I won’t rule it out)
I would be very interested to hear your heart on it.
Jam4000000amFri, 25 Apr 2008 07:57:31 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, April 25, 2008
Hey Zack…. I too stumbled across your site. I appreciate your openness about all this, cuz to be honest I have the same questions. Not too long ago a year give or take, We had an Evangelist come to our home church and preach “Following the Unauthorized Fire”. He was preaching and saying that too many times Christian want to see Gods Glory and Power in Healings with Signs and Wonders that they tend to be so caught up with it that they don’t stop to pray, seek God on what they are seeing and “test the spirits” as the bible warns us to do.
I think it is so great you are going down… I too will be looking forward to see what you experienced. Our Pastor has had his way paid to go this coming Monday and he will be taking his son… So be it of God Revival WILL come!
Another thing… I know some things that have lined up with what is happening here… God prompted me to put on a Women’s Ministry Invitation “Winds of Change”… now that was given to me in February of 2008, not knowing anything at all… The invites were for April. In the beginning of April 2008, a sister ~ who is EXTREMELY close to me~ was used by the Lord in a Prayer Meeting and spoke through her that “HIS Refreshing Winds are coming” Then a GUST of wind blew outside of the church and God then said “As the wind blows outside so will my winds”… Coincidence??? Nahhhh….. He is not out to confuse us that is for sure… It is all in His great plan. Also… Revival has been being “expected” in our atmosphere here in Western Upstate New York…. It has been spoken out by many who are Prophets of God and have come here.
… I came acrossed on YouTube.com of the signs and wonders of the “gold dust fallen from heaven” and the jewls and the such… I really honestly did not believe any of that…I wanted too, but, I guess like you, unless it happen to me… BUT I DO HONESTLY believe God DOES use the FOOLISH THINGS to Confound the wise… I mean it says so in HIS Word… why else should we not believe it. 
Oh, another thing
God has called me to be “crazy for Him” ~literally he spoke that to me~ He “actually interjected it into my thoughts quicker than I could possibly think” WHILE I was thinking on John the Baptist”
God said, “Are you willing to be deemed crazy for ME???” It took me a bit to process what He said to me and I reiterated it three times or so in my head before I answered. It was a sure eye opener of what God is going to be doing in my life and at first I was a little nervous (stink’n flesh) But I did say YES! I am sold out for the KINGDOM of GOD!!! I may not be a John the Baptist… I mean even Jesus was called a lunatic… But as I allow myself to be lead of the Holy Spirit, and crucify my own wills and wants and desires (my flesh) on a daily basis…
Ya know, there is something else… I have not had the priviledge to see alllll of a night of Todd Bentley preaching and the such… due to the fact we don’t have satalite and we don’t have broadband internet, but i have hit and missed with the streamlining I have seen… I have yet to see an altar call to the lost, so I am not aware of that… I do know that Jesus met the need of the person first that he was going to be witnessing too, whether it was one or a multitude of people. Hopefully, Todd’s team is instructed to take them aside and pray with them… please keep us informed.
God Bless You and yes, drive safely. I will be praying that the Holy Spirit gives you Divine Discernment to test the spirits.
Jpm4000000pmFri, 25 Apr 2008 12:36:45 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, April 25, 2008
Zach,
Thanks for your response. Again, I haven’t seen anything firsthand, haven’t been watching it every night (but have been following it pretty closely), and am only responding to the one altar call I have seen for the unsaved. Todd may very well be uplifting the “Lamb who was slain” on other occasions…
I pray that any revival and revivalist will take a page from Paul, who did all the signs and wonders but said, “God forbid I boast, except in the cross of the Lord Jesus Christ, by which the world is crucified to me and I to the world,” Galatians 6:14
But if it’s your fire Lord Jesus, let it spread to my neck of the woods!
Jpm4000000pmFri, 25 Apr 2008 13:50:28 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, April 25, 2008
It seems very intresting to me Zack, that I have been hanging around your blog for about six months now. In that time, I don’t think I have ever seen a single post with so many first time- by chance, type of people who have commented on any one thread.
My question is, and has been for the last couple of weeks, “What is God up to?” Look at the hunger and intrewst that is brewing. really intresting. We are hosting (MIchigan Bound 4 Life) the Mercy Seat Saturday at our statre supreme court. we were expecting their would be maybe fifty respond to even show. Our two teams and some others from prayer gorups around the state. But, there has been such an unusaul momentum that has build, adn this air of anticipation…. We have, as of Wendnesday, 154 register with the national, besides those who have contacted us, plus many state wide group[s who have urged thier people to come. Media intrest are showing up and people are excited. There seems to be a change in the air around our nation….
Just an observation… Maybe nothing… but then again, maybe something. We will see.
Jpm4000000pmFri, 25 Apr 2008 14:15:07 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, April 25, 2008
No John you are right, something is brewing. When I say brewing, I mean God is specifically doing something on the Earth right now. It actually sobers me. Because biblically whenever God brings revival, or blessing it always seems to be a last invitation into his grace before He brings his judgment on a region.
I didn’t know you were involved in the “mercy seat” thing. A group from IHOP is going out there for that. Jessie Engle (Lou’s son) was talking about it, and leading us in prayer for it this morning.
That’s why this Todd Bentley thing is curious to me. What’s funny is we did a Onething Conference in Lakeland the week before all this broke out. At the conference they were praying for revival. I think most in the church whether it be you and I or our reformed friends on this blog, all want to see a true expression of Christ exhibited by the church. I think God is bringing us to that point, so as to have a united front from which to preach the gospel.
I’m sobered to watch God move these days. It reminds me of my place; on my knees in ministering to his heart. Glorifying the name of His son.
bless you this weekend!
Jpm4000000pmFri, 25 Apr 2008 14:18:21 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, April 25, 2008
Margret,
thank you for the kind words. I hope you don’t take this the wrong way, because i mean it in love and respect; I appreciate the wisdom of my elders in the faith.
It’s actually going to work best for me to go next week. Got find/ save up money to go. My buddy Brent Steeno and I are planning on driving down then. Possibly flying if we get the money to do so.
bless you! and thank you
Jpm4000000pmFri, 25 Apr 2008 20:33:10 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, April 25, 2008
“I understand your stand offishness a little better now. But the thing with Todd Bently and others who will come like him, I believe that the Lord is packaging this revival in such a way as to offend the natural mind of men. We are coming to a time when a harvest will be reaped that will be filled with Todd Bently’s and others more outlandish than Him, and the Lord will be well pleased to use them in great power, even in thier spiritual infancy. He is preparing His people for this, and wanting to offend us. He did so in the gospel on many occasions, like in John 6. The most repulsive thing to a Jew would be to offer a rare steak to them, or any meat that wasn’t completely cooked- no blood. But Jesus takes it pushes it to a completely ridiculous level and tells them that they must eat his flesh and drink His blood or they couln’t have any part with Him.
Well, you know the result, many turned and walked with Him no more. He turns to the disciples and says, “will yo leave me also?” In thier reply, you can tell that tehy really didn’t understand a thing He said and were probably offended to some degree themselves, but did not turn away. My Point? Only the truly hungry for God adn His manifestation in the earth, in whatever form itr comes, will recieve what He wants to give in this hour. He will offend the natural sensibilities to get the heart of men. He only wants to entrust His true rices to these anyway. To the heart people, not the heady type. This intellectualy driven people who have no real heart for intimate relationship with the Lord will not be entrusted with this move.”
This comment was off the charts. The best comment I have heard so far that communicates my heart as well. It was so good I wrote it in my journal and plan on using it.
Jam4000000amSat, 26 Apr 2008 04:46:08 +000008 5, 2007 at Saturday, April 26, 2008
Thanks Steeno. I think you’ve got one of ours down there right now for Luke 18 project, his name is Brad S. from Detroit. take good care of him and tell him John B said Hey for me and that we will miss him at the mercy seat adnwill see him when he gets back.
Blesssings!!
Jam4000000amSun, 27 Apr 2008 03:19:37 +000008 5, 2007 at Sunday, April 27, 2008
Sigh…
Todd Bentley is one of my dividing lines that separates charismatics from charismaniacs. Back in 2004-2005 when I was first introduced to Bentley, I watched his videos and listened to a few of his “sermons” on his website. I will never forget listening to Bentley explain to his followers how someone who has been “healed” by a faith healer can forfeit that healing if they later lose faith or allow doubt to enter their mind. I believe he used the example of someone being “healed” of cancer and then later having a doctor tell them the cancer was still there. If this individual were to believe the doctor, and hence doubt the healing, they would forfeit it. A convenient out for the faith healer.
Todd Bentley is a heretic. I don’t throw that word out flippantly. As much as a I disagree with Mike Bickle, I’ve never called him a heretic. If we cannot see that men like Bentley are attempting to lead even the elect astray, we are truly blind.
You cannot condemn the Word/Faith movement and embrace Bentley – they are one and the same.
Have you seen his videos? Does anyone really believe his “slayings” of little children – throwing them into violent convulsions – are acts of Almighty God?
I’m also disappointed in the appearance of the “offend the mind to touch the heart” line. I don’t think I’ve seen that here before. This is one of the reasons I enjoy conversation here – the ability of most folks to engage in reasonable, rational, conversation. This is not a reasonable or rational line of argument.
To turn John 6 into a commentary on modern “Signs and Wonders” movements and personalities is, on it’s face, absurd. As mbaker alluded to earlier, 1 Cor. 1:27 has nothing to do with gold dust or barking like an animal (or miraculous healings, for that matter). Paul is speaking of the foolishness of the Cross and the Gospel of Christ. Please tell me you are not making a connection between the Cross and gold dust. God chooses the weak and foolish to shame the wise and strong – those who believe they can earn merit from God or make Him their debtor. THIS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH GOLD DUST!
Question for Bentley supporters/admirers: Was William Branham a man of God? Was he anointed?
I don’t doubt the man walked in spiritual/supernatural power, but is that all we require? Does sound doctrine (i.e. Truth) mean anything? If Branham was not a man of God, but a heretic, what do we make of his power? And what do we make of Bentley’s?
And how do we honor God with our minds by embracing these kinds of men and these kinds of ministries first, and asking (legitimate) questions later?
God Bless
P.S. If I have come on too strong here and offended some, I apologize. It is not my intent to be inflammatory, but I was truly disappointed and disheartened to encounter this conversation today.
Jpm4000000pmSun, 27 Apr 2008 20:00:19 +000008 5, 2007 at Sunday, April 27, 2008
“He will offend the natural sensibilities to get the heart of men. He only wants to entrust His true rices to these anyway. To the heart people, not the heady type. This intellectualy driven people who have no real heart for intimate relationship with the Lord will not be entrusted with this move.”
I agree with the first part of the quote above, which talks about God offending the sensibilities to get the heart of men. God will and does offend our sensibilities (one does not need Todd Bentley, just look at “blessed are the meek.”) But our sensibilities are not our minds and a dichotomy between heart and mind which values heart over mind is simply wrong. God values both and speaks to both. Both heart and mind can have “natural sensibilities” which God will offend. God can reach the hearts of people through their intellects and the minds of people through their hearts. As the end times approach God will need people with both right thoughts and right emotions and He will fully and supernaturally empower both.
Jam4000000amMon, 28 Apr 2008 03:38:51 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, April 28, 2008
Revival of what? Your skeptical gut is right on this one Zack. In fact it is probably the voice of the Holy Spirit at work through sanctified common sense. Yes, there is something ‘not right with you’, we are all lacking in love. But heretics aren’t heretics ‘because they don’t line up with my doctrine’. My belief may coincide with the orthodox position, but that is simply inconsequential. The fact that I agree or disagree with a person’s doctrine does not make them more or less of a heretic. They are heretics because they embrace or promote teachings contrary to Christian doctrine–Nicene orthodoxy–which stands as a rule of the faith for the entire Christian church. To be a Christian is to be a Trinitarian. William Branham thought that a triune God was expendable. Why would you or your tradition harbor Branham or anyone who associates themselves with him or his ministry? I simply don’t get it. You say:
“I don’t want to be found judging what God is doing. The fruit I see in these people’s lives is glory to God.”
I’m sure that these healings are glorifying a god, but what god that is I am not sure. Frankly, if Bentley is ‘renewing the calling of Branham’ then the ‘glory’ being given is not ‘glory’ but false worship. Branham was a modalist who blatantly denied the Trinity. People who support Branham’s ministry are either ignorant or heretical. Those are the only two choices. Branham’s message was sub-Christian at best and anti-Christian at worst. I could not label fellowship with a willing Branham supporter Christian fellowship.
Here is an excerpt from Bentley’s own copyrighted material delivered through ‘Freshfire’ ministries:
I first saw the angel called Healing Revival on December 5 of 2000 in Grant’s Pass. The angel came to me again in Albany the next February. He stood in the church service with his body going through the ceiling of the church. Then the Lord told me the angel’s name and that he was the same angel I saw in Grant’s Pass earlier. God also revealed to me that this angel was involved in the ministry of John Lake, William Branham, and John Knox in Scotland. This angel, the Lord said, is from the North West Healing Revival and is manifesting again as a sign that God is restoring the Voice of Healing revival and opening up the ancient wells.
In our ministry over the last year, this angel has come frequently and on many different occasions. When He comes I get a gift-the ability to diagnose people’s sicknesses with my left hand. At times this angel brings words of knowledge; I get very accurate details from God including people’s first, middle and last names as well as nicknames, the year they were injured, the color of their vehicle and the state they are from. Many other people have also seen or had contact with this angel in the meetings. And whenever this angel shows up the miracles go off the charts. Instead of a few healings, we’ll get three blind eyes in one night or maybe a cripple guy gets out of a wheel chair.
I believe the angel showed up in Albany as a sign that God was endorsing what was taking place and that it was opening up a healing well. Everywhere I have seen this angel the miracles continue after I leave and a healing well is established in that church and in that city. When that angel visits, we have another John 5 Pool of Bethesda experience as God releases His approval. That is why God repeatedly visits Jesus throughout His life-to place His stamp of approval on every stage. After we start to examine this topic, it’s easy to see how important angels were throughout Scripture.
If this is ‘Branham’s angel’, then people–we are not dealing with a friendly. Zack I really have come to appreciate your desire for the truth and your burden that the gospel might be effective. That is what is important. I am not accusing you of being a Branhamite. But, if you support the ministry of Bentley then in the name of charity you are linking up with some first rate heresy. Oh and by the way, did you know that he is a convicted child-molester?
Jam4000000amMon, 28 Apr 2008 11:51:12 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, April 28, 2008
zack
my friend i have longed for revival in my own area for as long as i have been a believer. but i must say if it was a bently revival or a branhamite one i would fight it with tooth and nail. why? because it is what a teacher says about God that matters. i also dont just throw the word heretic around lightly. but i will here. look i really like you man so please take this as from a friend. your gut reaction is a good one on all accounts. please go to Deuteronomy’ and read the warning about prophets who work sings and say bad things about God. or when Christ says false prophets will arise and deceive many. what does that mean? with good feelings and straight up healings coupled with some Heresy and a dash of spiritual murder. see zack this has always been my problem with the 3rd wave stuff all along. it teaches real Godly Christians that discernment is not healthy. oh it doesnt do it openly but with comments like offending the mind to reveal the heart. and then a guy cant even tell anymore. he can here what he knows to be lies but dare not stand and fight cause there are after all all these sings and wonders and great feelings. man i lived there for many years. i think for what its worth that you are the real deal holifield please give your gut a second hard look. fruit is in the mouth and the actions not one or the other. peace
Jpm4000000pmMon, 28 Apr 2008 12:00:56 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, April 28, 2008
@Eli Good word. We have to have both at the same time.
@JimB, Nat, and Jarrod.
I thank you guys for your words. I’m still seeing if I’m going to go see this thing first hand. So we are clear William Branam was a bonifide heretic. Chruch history documents that well on all sides.
I’m waiting this thing out before i make any public judgments. Might be a week, might be a year. But rather than say anything, I just want bless those who are continuing to come back radically healed of many diseases. That part is undeniable. As far as Todd Bentley, not sure yet.
bless you guys, I like that we have disagreements but are still for one another.
grace and peace
Jpm4000000pmMon, 28 Apr 2008 12:54:23 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, April 28, 2008
Zack,
My intent (and I’m guessing Nat’s & Jarrod’s) was not to dissuade you from going to Lakeland. If I lived in the area, my morbid curiosity would likely drive me there as well. I simply meant to plead with you to keep the discernment antennae at full staff, and not equate signs and wonders (even healing) with a move of God if said signs and wonders are attended with heresy. (Because I’ve been aware of Bentley and his ministry for a few years, and find his teachings and practices particularly abominable, I would maintain that this will almost necessarily be the case.)
God Bless
Jpm4000000pmMon, 28 Apr 2008 13:16:15 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, April 28, 2008
Thank You Jim.
Discernment is indeed up. Something that I constantly go back to, is Jesus telling us that many will “prophesy in my name, many will cast out devils and do many wonderful works, but I will profess unto them, I never knew you.”
You are right to say signs and wonders do not equate things of God. But they do give me pause because they are the “signs that follow those who believe”.
I want rejoice with Kelsey Hays, a girl we have been praying for as a staff who has been suffering from so many different diseases that she was bed ridden hooked up to an I.V. of Morphine because the pain was so bad. She came back this week completely healed. It was even documented in the news. Yet I disagree with Todd’s theology (at least what I’ve read and watched thus far) I still want to give glory to God because this poor girl isn’t suffering any more. Especially since i and many had been praying for her for so long. She is among a long list of people I know getting radically healed.
Therefore I have pause, not endorsement, just pause. I’m not smart enough in the Word to unpack it all. I will say this though I’m searching the scriptures, taking notes and watching like a hawk. By the end of this I hope to have gained a wealth of lessons learned.
Jpm4000000pmMon, 28 Apr 2008 16:41:20 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, April 28, 2008
Zack,
I would have to say that your approach to this is humble. It does not take much to disqualify something as not God because of a man, God is bigger than Man, but in my oppinion it takes a bigger and yet humble man to not just say “THAT IS NOT GOD.” Did not the religious men of the Bible say the same about Jesus. I am not saying i completely agree with it but who am i to Judge. Does not the word say Judge the fruit. He is not asking people to worship him. So i wanted to commend you on this. I pray for the day that people will pray for other people and ministries they do not agree with instead of just blasting them and attacking them. Peace out bro.
Jpm4000000pmMon, 28 Apr 2008 23:29:57 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, April 28, 2008
@Josh
“…but who am i to Judge.”
A Christian.
“I pray for the day that people will pray for other people and ministries they do not agree with instead of just blasting them and attacking them.”
Is this a judgment? Are you certain those who “blast” and “attack” do not also pray?
While I would agree we should pray for the repentance and salvation of false teachers, I can think of no scriptures that explicitly recommend this. On the other hand, I could throw a truck-load of scripture out that warns us against false teaching, requires us to separate from false teaching/teachers, etc. I could also cite examples of Paul calling false teachers out by name. (And this was well before Al Gore invented the internet.)
But I’m pretty sure you’ve had these verses thrown at you before.
Part of wisdom and discernment is distinguishing between in-house debates and out-right heresies. Todd Bentley’s teachings fall clearly in the latter.
Jam4000000amTue, 29 Apr 2008 06:12:30 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, April 29, 2008
zach
please read our latest post. i think you may find it interesting to say the least. also i am with jim on this that was my intent as well. as for josh i cant say it any better than jim did. peace to you all.
Jpm4000000pmTue, 29 Apr 2008 20:35:27 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, April 29, 2008
What I just pray is that IHOP doesn’t get dredged in with all of this. I read that Kelsey (someone I heard prayed for in the GPR repeatedly when I was there in March) went to Lakeland and got healed…great if so…what I heard was that someone came up to her in the GPR and offered to pay for her to go. My concern is that things like this, and that Bob Jones is involved, would lead most to think that IHOP fully endorses this. Frankly, yes, God will heal who he heals, but I don’t want ANYTHING that ignores, downplays, etc. the cross and the supremacy of Christ–even if it’s good. If I were you I wouldn’t even give it a HALF endorsement.
PS, pay attention to the “angelic” encounters. Apparitions floating above the ground? Angels of light? no to little mention of Jesus on their lips? the “Winds of Change” angel (being tossed around by every “wind” of teaching…)
Here in NJ we had the whole gold dust manifestation a few years ago and it took me 5 minutes to flush the thing down the mental toilet bowl. NO THANKS. Revival is a Christ-Awakening, as david Bryant puts it–and healing comes to heal up an army, not to dwell on the healing. Or the raising from the dead.
Don’t forget, Pharaoh’s magicians made snakes out of sticks, too. Let’s test the spirits. “The testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.” Anything else is COUNTERFEIT.
Jpm4000000pmTue, 29 Apr 2008 21:43:43 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, April 29, 2008
Zack- I am so glad you have addressed the revival in Lakeland. I heard about it recently and was discussing it the other night with my housemates. You probably remember our discussion last year after Bill Johnson to IHOP. I was so frustrated and confused… having come from a non-charismatic background and having no grid for what took place at the Signs & Wonders Conference. I watched some footage of the revivals yesterday, and I will admit I was totally offended and had no idea “what the point was” of pushing ppl over like they were dominoes, saying “bam… boombah” etc. I had a feeling you might have posted something about your thoughts regarding Todd Bentley and what’s happening so I am very happy to see your thoughts as well as everyone else’s. I still have some questions but maybe I will see you soon and we can chat. : ) Bless you!
Jam4000000amWed, 30 Apr 2008 00:05:30 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, April 30, 2008
yeah grace come grab me and we’ll talk. I’ll be in the PR from 6am-12pm everyday except Saturday.
love you kid. and I’m proud of you!
Jam4000000amWed, 30 Apr 2008 05:42:06 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, April 30, 2008
I went to the revival and yes there was mention of Jesus Christ. Even if there wasn’t the people were so hungry for Christ that they repeatedly kept chanting JESUS! JESUS! JESUS! So even if the Holy spirit wasn’t there my God he came when we called upon his name! I do however encourage others to go and Know for themselves. This revival has been spoken of by prophets including Chuck Peirce (5years ago) Who by the way I believe is a Man of God! Its in a book that he has with prophesies for the United States. May God Bless you all!
P.s. The fact that he may have molested a child and if it’s true or not has nothing to do with how and if God might choose to use him.Moses-murdered, Joseph-acused of rape, David-murdered, Abraham-lied, etc.
Let’s just continue to seek God for insight into the matter, and pray that His will Be done on earth as it is in Heaven!
Blessings.
Jpm4000000pmWed, 30 Apr 2008 15:06:07 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, April 30, 2008
I want to sincerely thank those of you from teh Grey Coats who have commented on this post. You constant call for doctrinal correctness has given me serious pause to think things through more thoughly concerning what is happening in Lakeland and elsewhere.
Though I do not relent from my original position of God offending the mind to expose the heart, there is the standard of the Word that causes me to question adn rethink what I beleive this revival is about in the heart of God.
What I am turning over in my mind at the moment is this passage that says, “He exalts His word above His name.” That is a serious statement to say. The Lord must have something crucial to convey by making such a claim as this to us, His people. I am forced to look at the bigger picture and wonder, “Lord, what are You doing? What are You saying to us in Lakeland?”
Jesus Himself is the express image of His Father, and the embodiment of the Word spoken: He is the Word incarnate- the Word become flesh. That being so, right understanding of His word is crucial to right relationship to God. Orthodoxy is foundational to right practice. So What is the Heart of God in this expression in Lakeland? When as a Nation we are delusional over our true state (to borrow a phrase)- what is God really doing and saying here; in it’s fullness??
I don’t think the answer is as neat and cute as we might like to try and package it. I think it is multifaceted. But I think some of it may be very sobering. Very sobering and shocking…. Let us not strive for the bread and riches that perish, but let us strive for the Heart of God Himself, let us desire Him alone. If we want just a certain manifestation or expression of His power, or have made revival into an idol of somekind, we might be getting what we want to our own hurt. Much like the Israelites in the wilderness when the quail rained down on them. The flesh was still in thier mouth when the plauge broke out against them.
I think it is about the heart in this hour. I found that I still am tolerating wickedness in mine and it has obscured my ability to understand God’s. Saying all of this, I am not bringing accusation against what is happenning in Flordia, just expressing a few thoughts. I am still trying to understand what all of this is. And I acknowledge the importance of God’s word as the standard of measure of all things. But how of it figures in the heart of God, I do not know.
Jpm4000000pmWed, 30 Apr 2008 16:43:49 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, April 30, 2008
I read this this morning… bold was what I felt the Holy Spirit emphasised to me regard this “revival”…
Col 2:17-23 These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ. Do not let anyone who delights in false humility and the worship of angels disqualify you for the prize. Such a person goes into great detail about what he has seen, and his unspiritual mind puffs him up with idle notions. He has lost connection with the Head, from whom the whole body, supported and held together by its ligaments and sinews, grows as God causes it to grow. Since you died with Christ to the basic principles of this world, why, as though you still belonged to it, do you submit to its rules:
“Do not handle! Do not taste! Do not touch!”?
These are all destined to perish with use, because they are based on human commands and teachings. Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self‑imposed worship, their false humility and their harsh treatment of the body, but they lack any value in restraining sensual indulgence. (NIV)
Jpm4000000pmWed, 30 Apr 2008 17:23:32 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, April 30, 2008
I stood in a meeting a couple of years ago in Topeka, I believe it was called Topeka Storm. All the same chaos was going on in that meeting that is going on in Lakeland and now at Rick Joyner’s ministry too. As I stood in the midst of Topeka Storm I asked the Lord “What is all this”? I watched one girl “dance” past me whose eyes were glazed over and I thought “where have I seen this before”? and I remembered…it was on the Discovery Channel. I was watching a show about VooDoo and channeling spirits.
God said to me two words, two words that revealed why I couldn’t join in, why I couldn’t sense His Spirit, why it wasn’t real, He said
– MANUFACTURED GLORY-
Enough said.
Jpm4000000pmWed, 30 Apr 2008 21:43:07 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, April 30, 2008
I think you should give it a shot- actually view the revival for a week and maybe consider going. I was there, and found it to be totally opposite to what you wrote- the interesting thing is…. you could be using Scripture to fight Scripture- for example in Acts 2, you would probably use the same Matt 7:15 against Acts 2, judging by your tone. If you want to be totally fair and sincere, tune in for a week or two- but take care. Don’t take shots at leaders/people who actually have more ‘revival’ (the true Life of Christ) than yourself, more souls saved, more orphans helped and more widows helped in Africa. As an African missionary, I think you need to be fair, instead of just critical- for example anyone can have a blog that criticizes leaders… but few people actually go out and serve others. Anyone can tear a house down, but can actually build a good house.
Jam5000000amThu, 01 May 2008 01:50:04 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, May 1, 2008
That’s awfully judgmental, John. How do you know what anyone here does outside this little blogdom?
You know what they say about stones and glass houses, right?
Jam5000000amThu, 01 May 2008 04:32:07 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, May 1, 2008
I’ve been watching bits and pieces of the revival on God.tv and I believe it is authentic and the Lord is doing things. I’m rejoicing because we have been crying out for revival and it’s happening. I also live next to Morningstar Ministries (Rick Joyner). And have seen videos and been a part of the revival meetings there and can testify that the Lord is moving, touching hearts, and transforming the lives of people showing up for the meetings.
Jpm5000000pmThu, 01 May 2008 13:30:01 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, May 1, 2008
I really think that the Lord is visiting His people. I am going down to meet my friend who is there from Australia on Monday. I want to meet with the Lord there, Hopefully it is as it was in the old revivals and I will take it back to the dry ground here.
Jpm5000000pmThu, 01 May 2008 14:14:08 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, May 1, 2008
Good choice- that is the Spirit of wisdom. There is an entire group of people on the internet who cannot /dare not venture out of their way of thinking- they all show up on certain sites, pat one another on the back, and convince each other that their way is ‘hermeneutically’ correct. We should just take care, thats all I was saying- what I found out from studying the lifestyle of several of these folks personally is:
(I am laying out some generalizations here, though there are exceptions- I am not targetting anyone on this blog or wordpress blogs!!- I am adressing the trends of impatience and knee-jerk prejudice, which is different than true time tested discernment)
1)They arent (usually) involved in local church or serving Christ- they just have a blog where they attack anything they don’t understand or have prejudged- usually (this is my experience- thats why I am clarifying) they move from church to church in their city- I know many people like this, and this is just common knowledge- church hoppers without any commitments
2)They usually don’t give or have any compassion towards the needy (a generalization)- thats why tithing and giving is a favorite subject, because they are hung up on money, like the rich young ruler in Luke- they can be addicted to pornography one moment, and arguing for right doctrines cutting their brothers down the next moment
3)They mistake knowing Scriptures for knowing and experiencing Jesus Christ, which Jesus said (John 5:39-44)
4)the same folks were cut of the live streaming chat/ coverage of the revival for attacking Todd and the revival with the similar spirit- email the administrators and they will confirm this.
5) When you ask legitamate questions, they get very angry and irate– this too, is not the Spirit of Christ (even Jesus asked questions!)
6)Discernment and fairness requires time and testing- (ACTS 5:34-39)
Thanks for a great site Zach- this is by far is one of the most fair, actually allowing folks with legitimate comments and dialogue- you are a bright light on the internet, a leader not just a follower of trends. Also, sorry if my comment was less than gracious (I evidently angered some people for asking some good questions)- I am not a very good communicator yet- but I am honest about my shortcomings. I am gonna tune in more on this site!
Jpm5000000pmThu, 01 May 2008 15:01:05 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, May 1, 2008
Chrystal,
>P.s. The fact that he may have molested a child and if it’s true or not has nothing to do with how and if God might choose to use him.
Let’s move past the “true or not” question. Charisma Magazine interviewed Bentley and reported that it did happen. A homosexual assault. Charisma deemed it important enough to publish.
http://www.charismamag.com/display.php?id=7032
Other published reports state that it was a 7 yr. old boy. Bentley was 14 and this was pre-conversion.
Have compassion for this young man who must be about 26 now, who sees the guy who assaulted him now “receiving his Kingly anointing” (Bentley 4/25/08).
Good might “choose to use him,” but in today’s society he would fail the background check required to become a scoutmaster or a sunday school teacher. So it is a concern, especially since many young people are involved, but it not a theological issue. Likewise, there are other red herrings, including the validity of the reported healings.
In the last days there will be lying signs and wonders, and Satan will come as an angel of light (Bentley speaks often of angels, and light). So we cannot really judge based on the externals. Maybe you think you can, but I can’t, and I was in this stuff before Bentley was conceived.
If we agree that agree that the Scriptures are the infallible, authoritative rule of faith and conduct, then we agree that doctrine is important.
My contention is that there is a shabby doctrinal foundation, based on Latter Rain, Dominion and MSoG teachings. When you buy into the heirarcy of revelation (such as taught by Steve Thompson), with 3rd heaven experiences being at a higher authority than much of the Word of God, then you open youself up to deception big time.
Bentley contends that he has LITERALLY spoken with the apostle Paul. And received an impartation through the laying on of hands. Not a vision or a dream but he was transported to heaven. And he incorporates what he has learned through his many visits to heaven in his teachings. So I am more concerned with his necomancy than his homosexual past.
We must stand firm on Doctrine. And where good doctrine is not present, we should simply stay away. And warn others who would be decieved. Do not fear that you will miss something that others proclaim God is doing. He may be in it, he may not, or it most likely may be a mixture. God will reward you for standing on his Word.
Whoa! I feel a sermon comin’ on. Thanks Zack for the outlet!
-Bill
Jpm5000000pmThu, 01 May 2008 16:28:40 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, May 1, 2008
[...] few guys in the church have talked with me about going. I probably will. I think you should do what Zach Hensley is thinking of doing – driving down with a buddy just to kick your skepticism in the face. [...]
Jpm5000000pmThu, 01 May 2008 20:02:19 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, May 1, 2008
I’ve read about a couple of weak men disqualified by the religious elite of the day because of their backgrounds:
“When they saw the courage of Peter and John and realized that they were unschooled, ordinary men, they were astonished and they took note that these men had been with Jesus. But since they could see the man who had been healed standing there with them, there was nothing they could say.” – Acts 4:13-14
Just throwing some thoughts out there:
“Then one was brought to Him who was demon-possessed, blind and mute; and He healed him, so that the blind and mute man both spoke and saw. And all the multitudes were amazed and said, “Could this be the Son of David?” Now when the Pharisees heard it they said, “This fellow does not cast out demons except by Beelzebub, the ruler of the demons.” But Jesus knew their thoughts, and said to them: “Every kingdom divided against itself is brought to desolation, and every city or house divided against itself will not stand.”
Matt 12:22-25
And He said to them, “I saw Satan fall like lightning from heaven. Behold, I give you the authority to trample on serpents and scorpions, and over all the power of the enemy, and nothing shall by any means hurt you. Nevertheless do not rejoice in this, that the spirits are subject to you, but rather rejoice because your names are written in heaven.”
Luke 10:18-20
Jpm5000000pmThu, 01 May 2008 23:11:18 +000008 5, 2007 at Thursday, May 1, 2008
John Senin,
You’ve had the audacity to drop into my backyard with a whole list of accusations and implications pointed toward me and my readership concerning my treatment of Lakeland/Bentley. You’ve angered me by condescending to my level to assert badly supported questions and then refusing to dialogue on thegreycoats, also for not even allowing a contrary voice on your own. Your list of points is not only elitist and pejorative but is ill-conceived. I would love to engage you point by point but so far you’ve stonewalled my every attempt to engage you in discussion. I’ve replied on thegreycoats, your blog, and even e-mailed you. Perhaps you aren’t so interested in defending your ‘legitimate’ questions–I guess the answers should be obvious to those who haven’t been corrupted by a ‘critical’ spirit. Furthermore, I can only suppose that you like it when Zack and others (such as my blog) allow for open discussion of opposing views but when it lands in your own backyard it is another matter.
Jam5000000amFri, 02 May 2008 00:50:39 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, May 2, 2008
Julie,
Exactly my point. Signs and Wonders neither confirm or deny a ministry.
Jam5000000amFri, 02 May 2008 01:24:41 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, May 2, 2008
Alright folks, until further notice, or until I bring it up again, I’m suspending this discussion.
I feel both sides have been represented. thank you and bless you all!
Eccl 3:11
Jam5000000amWed, 21 May 2008 02:58:24 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, May 21, 2008
Leviticus 19:28 “Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the Lord.”
Jpm5000000pmFri, 23 May 2008 18:05:21 +000008 5, 2007 at Friday, May 23, 2008
Its easy to make the non-essentials a ‘law’ which the Pharisees were experts at doing- They even prohibited healing on the Sabbath, and were ready to kill Jesus for healing/forgiving sins.
Chances are the person who wrote the previous post, didnt/doesnt follow the verse prior to Leviticus 19:28
“You shall not shave around the sides of your head, nor shall you disfigure the edges of your beard”– Leviticus 19:27
My point is not to condemn or argue here but– How often do we place restrictions, laws and disqualify our brothers whom Jesus has qualified? Thats the first question.
The 2nd is: How many of you Christians on this website actually use Leviticus in your daily life, to encourage your family, edify and benefit your churches? Or is it…………just being used to disqualify someone? In that case, you can take/use any Scripture to disqualify someone, and that takes no talent/ or hermeneutic either.
I was on Andrew Stroms website asking some good questions – the Sermon INdex guy was on there , basically ‘reproofed’ my questions, with no Scriptures, wisdom or remarks- He just said “I have watched the Revival and its not Scriptural”
Well, that take no hermenuetics…. we can actually use the Bible on our brothers , and use it to justify/get away with anything– its really easy to do. it doesnt take a degree or hernenuetical understanding. Just look at a Christian who is doing things ‘outside of your comfort zone alittle’ whether missions work, speaking about the ministry of angels, demons, helping orphans and widows….’
Then go and pull out Scriptures from the Old Testament, ones from sections/contexts that you normally don;t use (Like Leviticus 19… )
and then apply them to your brothers. O, and forget the fact that people are becoming Christians, giving up drugs, alchohol and immoral sex… overlook that completely
and then use one Scripture to disqualify someone who is doing more currently in Africa and other war-torn regions, than yourself. Its so very easy to do, and very un Christians. You can form an entire ministry around ‘faultfinding’ which is just laying a heavier measure upon ministries/Christians than you do yourself….. what a nice ‘ministry of condemnation and faulfinding’ I guess.
REad Acts 15:27-29 in context– my summary is “Do anything you want, and if it gets you closer to Jesus, glorifies the Holy Spirit, Father and Son, serves people and testifies to Christ– its OK!! As long as it is not immoral, destructive …… its not a heresy. Anyone can use the bible as a buffer for anything outside their comfort zone…. that is so easy… just pull up a Scripture that contradicts. anything!!! Its very very simple and happens everyday. But ask them “Do you use Leviticus 19:27…..or the rest of Leviticus and you will only hear silence usually. At best its good intentions, at worst
That may rock the boat a bit– but Jesus rocks the boat and true Christianity is not about just doctrines (knowledge that any parrot can learn- by the way did you hear the story about the parrot in Japan, memorized his way back home – he just repeated what his master told him)- true story. Funny story.
Jam5000000amSun, 25 May 2008 01:49:28 +000008 5, 2007 at Sunday, May 25, 2008
[...] a strong way. I cried. I hungered for his presence some more. I can be a skeptic sometimes, seems others can as well, but you can’t deny what you feel. I can’t deny what I felt watching the [...]
Jam5000000amMon, 26 May 2008 03:02:45 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, May 26, 2008
John S.,
Hmmm…I’ve deconstructed several of Todd Bentley’s biblical interpretations using sound hermeneutical principles. I’d like to hear your thoughts on a post I recently wrote entitled ‘Does Todd Bentley Bend The Bible?’. Of course I sincerely doubt that you will comment, much less stick around for dialogue. Even so, its good to see that you are still around to tacitly defend the current radical Charismatic poster boy.
“REad Acts 15:27-29 in context– my summary is “Do anything you want, and if it gets you closer to Jesus, glorifies the Holy Spirit, Father and Son, serves people and testifies to Christ– its OK!! As long as it is not immoral, destructive …… its not a heresy.”
Even in context I really don’t believe that you can accurately glean this interpretation from the passage in Acts. One must define their terms. Who or
what is meant by Jesus, Holy Spirit, Father, and Son? You take for granted that everyone has the same understanding of these Persons. They certainly do not. For this reason I am convinced that both the LDS church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses could agree with your summary. They would each say that their doctrines get you closer to Jesus, glorify the Holy Spirit, Father and Son, serves people and testifies to Christ. They can attest to these things because they’ve redefined God according to their own understanding. That is not o.k. that is heresy.
I’d love to dialogue with you further in regard to the specific textual distinctives of Acts 15. Haven’t seen too much willingness to do that so far. Must be my ‘religious spirit’ or the fact that I’m a Pharisee alongwith others of my ilk who exalt divisive doctrine. Or hey, pick your own catchphrase depending on the situation:
God can’t be put in a box.” (one of my personal favorites)
“God is tearing down the religious spirit.”
“You are stuck in your tradition.”
Dare to challenge a particular leader or call into question their doctrine and one runs into more loaded language.
“We are not to judge.”
“Why are you coming against him?”
“Love covers but judgment uncovers.”
“If it is not of God it will fail but if it is of God you can’t stop it.”
“Look at the fruit.”
“Touch not my anointed.”
“Truth is a person, not a doctrine.”
“Jesus is more important than doctrine.”
Ask them to evaluate their seeming out of control behavior and you get….
“God offends the mind to reveal the heart.”
“God doesn’t want us living from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”
Push too hard and the ad hominem attacks begin.
“You have a jezebel spirit.”
“You have a religious spirit.”
“Satan is the accuser of the brethren.”
Jpm5000000pmMon, 26 May 2008 13:24:01 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, May 26, 2008
I think mike’s message this Sunday (yesterday) Was the best and wisest reponse to lakeland and all moves of the spirit that I’ve ever heard.
He said we need to “discern what is excellent” That what is going on in Lakeland is a move of God small “m”. Meaning it’s a move but not mostly right.
He said: “Many view a move of the Holy Spirit as either “totally right or totally wrong” instead of seeing the great good while discerning that which is not good. The weaknesses (character, doctrine, and ministry style) of the vessels that the Spirit chooses are not automatically resolved when the power of God operates through them.”
He said “We can’t be so open minded toward moves like this that our brains fall out. We have to have discernment.”
He talked how it would be so much easier if God just used perfect people who did it all right… But their is no one who would do it right. He said that the only people that people pick that would do it right is themselves. Of course we think we’d do it right, but we wouldn’t.
We discern what is of God, and what isn’t. He said a move of God is just about power on believers he said it’s about teaching us wisdom and humility.
He said God wants all of us limping- all of us leaning in His grace and strength at the end of the day. Those who get the power have to be humbled by the criticism of those who see their weakness. And those who point out the weakness have to be humbled by the fact that didn’t receive what God was doing. Neither side is mostly right. Both need the wisdom of Christ… which is the point. That we need wisdom from heaven.
It was the best message I’ve heard in a long time. And the best I’ve heard concerning Lakeland. If anyone wants it, e-mail me and I’ll send it to you.
Jpm5000000pmMon, 26 May 2008 15:58:22 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, May 26, 2008
Zack,
What about the continued influence of people like Todd Bentley within the circles that Bickle travels in? Is the chicanery just allowed to continue unchecked or unspoken against? They all look out for each other man. No one but an insider can really call people like Todd Bentley to task for his open support of heretics like William Branham, abberrant angelology, his Kundaliniesque practices, and the New Age teaching of teleporting spiritual wormholes (that is just for starters). People like me are just seen as divisive, unspiritual, despisers of the Holy Spirit. An honest rebuke from anyone outside of the Charismatic crowd is simply disregarded. The only thing that I can surmise is that Mike Bickle and everyone else who is a player in the prophetic movement is basically o.k. with the teachings coming out of Lakeland. What else can I think if Mr. Bickle calls Lakeland a ‘not mostly right move of God’–either he is thinks it is a move of God or he doesn’t. Or, does God have problems moving? I don’t know what else to think Zack. Are any respected leaders in the prophetic movement, 3rd wave, prayer movement legitimately warning people against perceiving the Lakeland phenomena as normal Christian experience. Is this happening Zack? If it isn’t why not? I simply don’t believe that the apostolic authority of the Scriptures support carnival show Christianity such as the Lakeland phenomena. How can Mr. Bickle say that a move of the Holy Spirit may not be ‘all right’? A move of the Holy Spirit had damn sure better be ‘all right’.
Jpm5000000pmMon, 26 May 2008 16:12:38 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, May 26, 2008
Yeah… your are jumping to about 15 conclusions based on small snippets i wrote that are not reality. I can send you the audio message so you can actually hear what he says, however I have doubts that it would matter to you.
there is plenty of warning about teaching those things, and there was yesterday, why else do you think he would warn that we need to be discerning and not just accept everything.
Love covers. Love is not inactive, it simply presents things in a patient and kind way so the receiver of correction feels the love for which Christ loves them when they are corrected.
bless you Nathan from the bottom of my heart. I pray you continue to gain revelation in the Word.
since this is my “home turf” I’m claiming the last word here, and retreating back to my temporary blogging retirement. Any further conversation can happen via e-mail: zhensley@gmail.com
until I reemerge… blessings all
Jpm5000000pmMon, 26 May 2008 21:11:19 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, May 26, 2008
In Holland I watch every day, and the last days the anointing is so strong that I fall on the ground, by the pc.(and lay for one our)
The glory of God is so amazing.
I praise God for Todd and Roy and all the others.
Jpm5000000pmWed, 28 May 2008 13:31:31 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, May 28, 2008
Its good to be back in the chatroom- we don’t have to debate, we can
just appreciate one anothers viewpoint and agree to disagree. Zack set
gave me a word of wisdom a while back, privately via email. He
essentially said its ‘easy to be combative online- be careful’ and
that is true. I find it easy to be abrupt and even harsh- sorry,
thats a weakness I want God to make me more gentle.
Hmmm…I’ve deconstructed several of Todd Bentley’s biblical
interpretations using sound hermeneutical principles. I’d like to hear
your thoughts on a post I recently wrote entitled ‘Does Todd Bentley
Bend The Bible?’. Of course I sincerely doubt that you will comment,
much less stick around for dialogue. Even so, its good to see that you
are still around to tacitly defend the current radical Charismatic
poster boy.
I am not trying to debate- debate is so subjective, no matter how
objective you claim to be. Observation, Interpretation, Correlation,
and Application- these can all be subjective. And to remind us of
some other historical facts:– Martin Luther didn’t like the book of
James, he called it the ‘epistle of straw’ Dietrich Bonhoeffer quotes
this several times in his books.
My point is – things are more subjective if we truly are honest.
Acts 15 (in its context) is a counsel to ‘do away with the lesser,
more subjective things’ and insist on the more important issues of
morality. Its crystal clear, in fact. We have to come to grips with
‘grey areas’– I begging the greycoats to adress the grey areas, its
probably your calling, just like your name.– let there be grey areas.
For example, some denominations make it ‘unbiblical’ to play guitar or
other instruments– yet Scripture leaves room for ‘the non essentials’
THERE IS NO end to like some denominations say ‘guitars are satanic’
denominations are satanic.. tongues are satanic. In the 50’s and 60’s
it was pianos that used to be in bars… and then showed up in church.
What about the rainbow in Genesis? What about the Urim and Thummin?
What about drawing lots for apostleship (where is that in the Bible
in the Septuagint)- these are just some quick points- there is alot
of wierd stuff in the Bible, and its not an excuse for wierdness- but
just to say its there, and we have to deal with it.
but we have to leave open some things just like Peter’s vision in
Acts 10:9-16– Peter didnt have perfect doctrine/ ortho praxis/
orthodoxy either, for he was rebuked in public as Paul mentions in the
Book of Galatians. these are all in the Context of Biblical revivals-
revivals like the Book of 1 Corinthians 12-15. Even the Biblical
revivals were messy and controversial– The Jerusalem council did
their best to summarize what God wanted in light of Peter’s vision and
Pauls’ newly launched ministry
“FOR IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AND TO US TO LAY UPON YOU NO
GREATER BURDEN THAN THESE NECESSARY THINGS…” ACTS 15:28
We need to embrace the language of the Bible– look at this “It seems
good to the Holy Spirit and to us-” thats right, these are Biblical
Apostles saying what is heresy/ what isnt, by moral definition.
“Then they rejoiced over the encouragement…. and Judas and Silas
themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren
with many words.” ACTS 15:30-32
I am having a good laugh at this, its fun– Firstly, Todd like you
(natrimony) is a brother. It doesnt mean i enjoy or agree with
everything you/he does or says– I have a brother, and dont agree with
him all the time– Natrimony (are you married by the way?) I am trying
to figure out what your name means. Are you married, or ‘N’ does
that mean – “nearly?” I know Zack was getting married soon. Just a
little laugh on the ligher side. I know where to read about Todd
Bently and Zack Hensley- you know where to read about me, John Senin-
where do i read about you?
People like me are just seen as divisive, unspiritual, despisers of
the Holy Spirit. An honest rebuke from anyone outside of the
Charismatic crowd is simply disregarded. The only thing that I can
surmise is that Mike Bickle and everyone else who is a player in the
prophetic movement is basically o.k. with the teachings coming out of
Lakeland.
Natrimoney, I can tell you really love Jesus and the Truth of the
Bible- we need more people like you in the world.– I am not
disregarding what you are saying. We need people who are careful
and judge and weigh things. Zack is good at this as well-
Lakeland was a great place where God is obviously moving in power-
people who were terminally sick or seriously sick were healed and
doctors documented this (Like Kelsey hays from IHOP)- Its imperfect
because…. there are humans involved.
Here are some ways that we misuse the Bible:
“You bought a car – where is that in the Bible… New Age heresy!
Therefore we can get extreme about what we prohibit allow–
You used Toilet Paper… where is that in the Bible? ”
PEOPLE LIKE NATRIMONY are essential– the thing i want to ask from you
is ‘what is your real name/ names?’ We have the easy ability to look
up/ look at Todd Bentley– but sometimes as brothers, do others that
kind of lens into our own life? Its just a question, I will let you
draw the conclusion– it is sometimes easy to look at the flaws in
other people, and yet we don’t allow the same ‘lens’ in our own life.
Its a point to consider, thats all.
There is alot of wierd stuff in the Bible– a death and resurrection
is wierd. Luther thought the book of James was ‘wierd’ Yet in
Hebrew the word for ‘knowledge’ YADA, means much more than just
reading and reciting ”Adam knew Eve’– it is much more intimate,
experiential and personal. The Hebrew mindset on doctrine and belief
is much different than the Western Civ mindset-
You didn’t mention anything about Acts 15– look at it in context (the
gospel going forth to the Gentiles)- Acts 15:28
I believe we all have the calling to
exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words ACTS 15:32- you
don’t have to be a prophet just in order.
.– Let us be firm on the major and important things– let us
appreciate what God is doing, let us honestly agree that their is
wierd things in the Bible- our doctrines liek the virgin birth, death
and resurrection are all wierd– the were fought over (just like the
Trinity is a wierd, illogical doctrine)- for centuries, and have only
been accepted after years of stigma and dispute.
But let us move in love, Like Paul told Timothy ” Pursue love, a pure
conscience and a sincere faith’ I believe in my heart that Todd
Bentley is doing his best to do that, along with all of you who have
written/ or read this post on Lakeland. bless you all, I will stop
here as well on my thoughts on Lakeland.- Be discerning, receive the
good, discern the bad – dont quench the Spirit and don’t despise
prophecy.
“Whoever is not against me, is for me”–Jesus response to someone
question about another who was casting out demons differently, with a
different group than the disciples. Luke 9:49-50 Its interesting
that Jesus didn’t do 20 questions and a doctrine interview, He just
said
“Whoever is not against me, is for me”–
Let us go onto love and serve the Lord with humility, and leave the
grey areas grey… or leave them for the greycoats (just having fun a
little)- Thank God we have brothers (the greycoats) who ask the hard
questions!
John Senin
Jpm5000000pmWed, 28 May 2008 16:59:51 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, May 28, 2008
John S,
‘I am not trying to debate- debate is so subjective, no matter how
objective you claim to be.’
All of our names and info was posted on the title page of thegreycoats. That has recently been edited. However I would be happy to supply you with any info you want at natrimony@yahoo.com. If you are not trying to debate then why did you reply? Why did you formulate arguments to defend your position? Just be honest. You DO take a position and you ARE debating. You are using sophistry and rhetoric (albeit badly) to deflect the main points of my original reply to you. The loaded language which flavors your commentary seems almost verbatim according to my above mentioned list. Also, Zack can both speak for and defend himself.
Your pleasantries are probably meant to be disarming but I find them condescending. I shouldn’t respond since you will probably reply with more platitudes about subjectivity, the imperfect nature of dialogue, or some other vehicle which places you firmly on the moral high-ground of the discussion. I mean I’m the one who is despising prophecy, right? Out of one side of the mouth you claim that my input is important and out of the other you insinuate that I’m a fundamentalist akin to those who disallow guitar playing.
You take the decision of the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 out of itself and create a modern prescription for licensing abberant doctrines. Acts 15.28 is not speaking about heretical teaching, it is speaking about cultural licentiousness. The direct clash between Jewish and Gentile cultures is the direct context. A more modern consistent application of this passage would be something along the lines of ‘How do we exhort Nigerian Christians who practice cultural polygamy, animistic worship dancing, and female circumcision. Please don’t try to twist the application to fit your own ends. That is eisegesis. Read all about it here: http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/2008/05/23/does-todd-bentley-bend-the-bible/
The hermeneutic which says otherwise is simply not on the up and up.
Jpm6000000pmMon, 09 Jun 2008 15:55:45 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, June 9, 2008
I understand what you are saying and how careful you are to not judge this happening in Florida,but I just want to caution everyone to the scripture, that just because there are signs and healings, it does not necessarily make it of God.
There is such a thing as lying signs and wonders. Matter of fact, that will be the way that the anti-christ will deceive. It will be through lying signs and wonders.
Just be very careful, because everything must line up with the word of God. If it is not rooted in the word, it is not true. I believe that God will expose this if this is conterfeit or false. In the book of Acts it says that if this move be of God, man cannot do anything about it. So we will see. God will decide on this situation. I would never endorse anything feeling as unsettled as I feel about this situation. God bless you for endeavoring to be fair in this situation.
Jpm10000000pmTue, 07 Oct 2008 22:25:22 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, October 7, 2008
Who is William Branum? or Todd Bentley? I have studied the works of John G Lake and he definately had the gifts of healings with many documented. Smithe Wigglesworth is another early pioneer who should be looked at closely if you are interested in faith healing. The fact is that the gifts of the Holy Spirit are still in action today as is the five fold ministry.For one to witness a healing ,faith is all that is needed. I have witnessed many healings at my church, some of which were incurable by medical means.I have heard it said seeing is believing and I am definately a believer.May blessings from God rain in your lives and the Peace of God reign in your lives.In Jesus name. Jeff
Jpm12000000pmSat, 13 Dec 2008 20:28:35 +000008 5, 2007 at Saturday, December 13, 2008
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