‘I am not trying to debate- debate is so subjective, no matter how
objective you claim to be.’

All of our names and info was posted on the title page of thegreycoats. That has recently been edited. However I would be happy to supply you with any info you want at natrimony@yahoo.com. If you are not trying to debate then why did you reply? Why did you formulate arguments to defend your position? Just be honest. You DO take a position and you ARE debating. You are using sophistry and rhetoric (albeit badly) to deflect the main points of my original reply to you. The loaded language which flavors your commentary seems almost verbatim according to my above mentioned list. Also, Zack can both speak for and defend himself.

Your pleasantries are probably meant to be disarming but I find them condescending. I shouldn’t respond since you will probably reply with more platitudes about subjectivity, the imperfect nature of dialogue, or some other vehicle which places you firmly on the moral high-ground of the discussion. I mean I’m the one who is despising prophecy, right? Out of one side of the mouth you claim that my input is important and out of the other you insinuate that I’m a fundamentalist akin to those who disallow guitar playing.

You take the decision of the Jerusalem council in Acts 15 out of itself and create a modern prescription for licensing abberant doctrines. Acts 15.28 is not speaking about heretical teaching, it is speaking about cultural licentiousness. The direct clash between Jewish and Gentile cultures is the direct context. A more modern consistent application of this passage would be something along the lines of ‘How do we exhort Nigerian Christians who practice cultural polygamy, animistic worship dancing, and female circumcision. Please don’t try to twist the application to fit your own ends. That is eisegesis. Read all about it here: http://thegreycoats.wordpress.com/2008/05/23/does-todd-bentley-bend-the-bible/
The hermeneutic which says otherwise is simply not on the up and up.

Hmmm…I’ve deconstructed several of Todd Bentley’s biblical
interpretations using sound hermeneutical principles. I’d like to hear
your thoughts on a post I recently wrote entitled ‘Does Todd Bentley
Bend The Bible?’. Of course I sincerely doubt that you will comment,
much less stick around for dialogue. Even so, its good to see that you
are still around to tacitly defend the current radical Charismatic
poster boy.

I am not trying to debate- debate is so subjective, no matter how
objective you claim to be. Observation, Interpretation, Correlation,
and Application- these can all be subjective. And to remind us of
some other historical facts:– Martin Luther didn’t like the book of
James, he called it the ‘epistle of straw’ Dietrich Bonhoeffer quotes
this several times in his books.

My point is - things are more subjective if we truly are honest.
Acts 15 (in its context) is a counsel to ‘do away with the lesser,
more subjective things’ and insist on the more important issues of
morality. Its crystal clear, in fact. We have to come to grips with
‘grey areas’– I begging the greycoats to adress the grey areas, its
probably your calling, just like your name.– let there be grey areas.

For example, some denominations make it ‘unbiblical’ to play guitar or
other instruments– yet Scripture leaves room for ‘the non essentials’

THERE IS NO end to like some denominations say ‘guitars are satanic’
denominations are satanic.. tongues are satanic. In the 50’s and 60’s
it was pianos that used to be in bars… and then showed up in church.

What about the rainbow in Genesis? What about the Urim and Thummin?
What about drawing lots for apostleship (where is that in the Bible
in the Septuagint)- these are just some quick points- there is alot
of wierd stuff in the Bible, and its not an excuse for wierdness- but
just to say its there, and we have to deal with it.

but we have to leave open some things just like Peter’s vision in
Acts 10:9-16– Peter didnt have perfect doctrine/ ortho praxis/
orthodoxy either, for he was rebuked in public as Paul mentions in the
Book of Galatians. these are all in the Context of Biblical revivals-
revivals like the Book of 1 Corinthians 12-15. Even the Biblical
revivals were messy and controversial– The Jerusalem council did
their best to summarize what God wanted in light of Peter’s vision and
Pauls’ newly launched ministry

“FOR IT SEEMED GOOD TO THE HOLY SPIRIT AND TO US TO LAY UPON YOU NO
GREATER BURDEN THAN THESE NECESSARY THINGS…” ACTS 15:28

We need to embrace the language of the Bible– look at this “It seems
good to the Holy Spirit and to us-” thats right, these are Biblical
Apostles saying what is heresy/ what isnt, by moral definition.

“Then they rejoiced over the encouragement…. and Judas and Silas
themselves being prophets also, exhorted and strengthened the brethren
with many words.” ACTS 15:30-32

I am having a good laugh at this, its fun– Firstly, Todd like you
(natrimony) is a brother. It doesnt mean i enjoy or agree with
everything you/he does or says– I have a brother, and dont agree with
him all the time– Natrimony (are you married by the way?) I am trying
to figure out what your name means. Are you married, or ‘N’ does
that mean - “nearly?” I know Zack was getting married soon. Just a
little laugh on the ligher side. I know where to read about Todd
Bently and Zack Hensley- you know where to read about me, John Senin-
where do i read about you?

People like me are just seen as divisive, unspiritual, despisers of
the Holy Spirit. An honest rebuke from anyone outside of the
Charismatic crowd is simply disregarded. The only thing that I can
surmise is that Mike Bickle and everyone else who is a player in the
prophetic movement is basically o.k. with the teachings coming out of
Lakeland.

Natrimoney, I can tell you really love Jesus and the Truth of the
Bible- we need more people like you in the world.– I am not
disregarding what you are saying. We need people who are careful
and judge and weigh things. Zack is good at this as well-

Lakeland was a great place where God is obviously moving in power-
people who were terminally sick or seriously sick were healed and
doctors documented this (Like Kelsey hays from IHOP)- Its imperfect
because…. there are humans involved.

Here are some ways that we misuse the Bible:

“You bought a car - where is that in the Bible… New Age heresy!
Therefore we can get extreme about what we prohibit allow–

You used Toilet Paper… where is that in the Bible? ”

PEOPLE LIKE NATRIMONY are essential– the thing i want to ask from you
is ‘what is your real name/ names?’ We have the easy ability to look
up/ look at Todd Bentley– but sometimes as brothers, do others that
kind of lens into our own life? Its just a question, I will let you
draw the conclusion– it is sometimes easy to look at the flaws in
other people, and yet we don’t allow the same ‘lens’ in our own life.
Its a point to consider, thats all.

There is alot of wierd stuff in the Bible– a death and resurrection
is wierd. Luther thought the book of James was ‘wierd’ Yet in
Hebrew the word for ‘knowledge’ YADA, means much more than just
reading and reciting ”Adam knew Eve’– it is much more intimate,
experiential and personal. The Hebrew mindset on doctrine and belief
is much different than the Western Civ mindset-

You didn’t mention anything about Acts 15– look at it in context (the
gospel going forth to the Gentiles)- Acts 15:28

I believe we all have the calling to

exhorted and strengthened the brethren with many words ACTS 15:32- you
don’t have to be a prophet just in order.

.– Let us be firm on the major and important things– let us
appreciate what God is doing, let us honestly agree that their is
wierd things in the Bible- our doctrines liek the virgin birth, death
and resurrection are all wierd– the were fought over (just like the
Trinity is a wierd, illogical doctrine)- for centuries, and have only
been accepted after years of stigma and dispute.

But let us move in love, Like Paul told Timothy ” Pursue love, a pure
conscience and a sincere faith’ I believe in my heart that Todd
Bentley is doing his best to do that, along with all of you who have
written/ or read this post on Lakeland. bless you all, I will stop
here as well on my thoughts on Lakeland.- Be discerning, receive the
good, discern the bad - dont quench the Spirit and don’t despise
prophecy.

“Whoever is not against me, is for me”–Jesus response to someone
question about another who was casting out demons differently, with a
different group than the disciples. Luke 9:49-50 Its interesting
that Jesus didn’t do 20 questions and a doctrine interview, He just
said

“Whoever is not against me, is for me”–

Let us go onto love and serve the Lord with humility, and leave the
grey areas grey… or leave them for the greycoats (just having fun a
little)- Thank God we have brothers (the greycoats) who ask the hard
questions!

John Senin

there is plenty of warning about teaching those things, and there was yesterday, why else do you think he would warn that we need to be discerning and not just accept everything.

Love covers. Love is not inactive, it simply presents things in a patient and kind way so the receiver of correction feels the love for which Christ loves them when they are corrected.

bless you Nathan from the bottom of my heart. I pray you continue to gain revelation in the Word.

since this is my “home turf” I’m claiming the last word here, and retreating back to my temporary blogging retirement. Any further conversation can happen via e-mail: zhensley@gmail.com

until I reemerge… blessings all

What about the continued influence of people like Todd Bentley within the circles that Bickle travels in? Is the chicanery just allowed to continue unchecked or unspoken against? They all look out for each other man. No one but an insider can really call people like Todd Bentley to task for his open support of heretics like William Branham, abberrant angelology, his Kundaliniesque practices, and the New Age teaching of teleporting spiritual wormholes (that is just for starters). People like me are just seen as divisive, unspiritual, despisers of the Holy Spirit. An honest rebuke from anyone outside of the Charismatic crowd is simply disregarded. The only thing that I can surmise is that Mike Bickle and everyone else who is a player in the prophetic movement is basically o.k. with the teachings coming out of Lakeland. What else can I think if Mr. Bickle calls Lakeland a ‘not mostly right move of God’–either he is thinks it is a move of God or he doesn’t. Or, does God have problems moving? I don’t know what else to think Zack. Are any respected leaders in the prophetic movement, 3rd wave, prayer movement legitimately warning people against perceiving the Lakeland phenomena as normal Christian experience. Is this happening Zack? If it isn’t why not? I simply don’t believe that the apostolic authority of the Scriptures support carnival show Christianity such as the Lakeland phenomena. How can Mr. Bickle say that a move of the Holy Spirit may not be ‘all right’? A move of the Holy Spirit had damn sure better be ‘all right’.

He said we need to “discern what is excellent” That what is going on in Lakeland is a move of God small “m”. Meaning it’s a move but not mostly right.

He said: “Many view a move of the Holy Spirit as either “totally right or totally wrong” instead of seeing the great good while discerning that which is not good. The weaknesses (character, doctrine, and ministry style) of the vessels that the Spirit chooses are not automatically resolved when the power of God operates through them.”

He said “We can’t be so open minded toward moves like this that our brains fall out. We have to have discernment.”

He talked how it would be so much easier if God just used perfect people who did it all right… But their is no one who would do it right. He said that the only people that people pick that would do it right is themselves. Of course we think we’d do it right, but we wouldn’t.

We discern what is of God, and what isn’t. He said a move of God is just about power on believers he said it’s about teaching us wisdom and humility.

He said God wants all of us limping- all of us leaning in His grace and strength at the end of the day. Those who get the power have to be humbled by the criticism of those who see their weakness. And those who point out the weakness have to be humbled by the fact that didn’t receive what God was doing. Neither side is mostly right. Both need the wisdom of Christ… which is the point. That we need wisdom from heaven.

It was the best message I’ve heard in a long time. And the best I’ve heard concerning Lakeland. If anyone wants it, e-mail me and I’ll send it to you.

Hmmm…I’ve deconstructed several of Todd Bentley’s biblical interpretations using sound hermeneutical principles. I’d like to hear your thoughts on a post I recently wrote entitled ‘Does Todd Bentley Bend The Bible?’. Of course I sincerely doubt that you will comment, much less stick around for dialogue. Even so, its good to see that you are still around to tacitly defend the current radical Charismatic poster boy.

“REad Acts 15:27-29 in context– my summary is “Do anything you want, and if it gets you closer to Jesus, glorifies the Holy Spirit, Father and Son, serves people and testifies to Christ– its OK!! As long as it is not immoral, destructive …… its not a heresy.”

Even in context I really don’t believe that you can accurately glean this interpretation from the passage in Acts. One must define their terms. Who or
what is meant by Jesus, Holy Spirit, Father, and Son? You take for granted that everyone has the same understanding of these Persons. They certainly do not. For this reason I am convinced that both the LDS church and the Jehovah’s Witnesses could agree with your summary. They would each say that their doctrines get you closer to Jesus, glorify the Holy Spirit, Father and Son, serves people and testifies to Christ. They can attest to these things because they’ve redefined God according to their own understanding. That is not o.k. that is heresy.
I’d love to dialogue with you further in regard to the specific textual distinctives of Acts 15. Haven’t seen too much willingness to do that so far. Must be my ‘religious spirit’ or the fact that I’m a Pharisee alongwith others of my ilk who exalt divisive doctrine. Or hey, pick your own catchphrase depending on the situation:

God can’t be put in a box.” (one of my personal favorites)

“God is tearing down the religious spirit.”

“You are stuck in your tradition.”

Dare to challenge a particular leader or call into question their doctrine and one runs into more loaded language.

“We are not to judge.”

“Why are you coming against him?”

“Love covers but judgment uncovers.”

“If it is not of God it will fail but if it is of God you can’t stop it.”

“Look at the fruit.”

“Touch not my anointed.”

“Truth is a person, not a doctrine.”

“Jesus is more important than doctrine.”

Ask them to evaluate their seeming out of control behavior and you get….

“God offends the mind to reveal the heart.”

“God doesn’t want us living from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil.”

Push too hard and the ad hominem attacks begin.

“You have a jezebel spirit.”

“You have a religious spirit.”

“Satan is the accuser of the brethren.”