I want to take the next couple of weeks working through the topic of Revelation. I not only find the subject relevant, but pertinent as there is a growing rise of cessasionist camps speaking out against current Holy Spirit revelation, and camps making things not inspired by God “Holy Spirit revelation”. I don’t come to set both sides straight, I don’t write to answer all the questions. I simply find what I’m reading in scripture to be somewhere in the middle, so I’d like to share my view point based on my personal searching of scripture. This will be the first in many posts over the next month.
So let us start by outlining some basics of Revelation.
It is impossible for us as finite and created beings to reach and comprehend the infinite and Creator God without some form of revelation that is distinctly from Him to us. Now that we are in Christ and have become sons of God, heirs with Christ, hidden in Him until we appear with Him in glory, we in our finite minds want to understand the infinite things that have been freely given us. As people saved from the fires of Hell, with grateful hearts we want to know and worship the God who gave His life for us. We want to give His Son the glory He is do. We want to live out our lives in ways that please Him. Not out of religious obligation, but out for holy affection for the one who gave us life that we did not deserve.
I Cor 2:9-10 & 12
“as it is written ‘What no eye has seen, nor ear heard, nor the heart of man imagined, what God has prepared for those who love’- These things God Has revealed to us through the Spirit. For the Spirit searches everything, even the depths of God… Now we have received not the spirit of the world, but the spirit who is from God, that we might understand the things freely given us by God”
There are 3 types of Revelation that God has given us as invitations to know God, and those things we have received through redemption in Christ.
- Scripture. 2 Timothy 3:16 “All scripture is breathed out by God.” Scripture is the very Word of God. It is God’s revelation to us about himself. None of that which is written in the 66 book library of the Bible is the wisdom of man. Instead it is living revelation orchestrated to be imparted through man by God. In scripture we have a wealth of wisdom and understanding as to who the Triune God is. Not just His being, but also His personality, character, and heart.
- Jesus. Col. 1 “He is expressed image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation.” Hebrews 1:3 “He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power.” After quoting that, I don’t feel I need to add any more exposition, kind of speaks for itself. Jesus is the great prophet, great high priest. He is the mediator between God and man. I John 1 and John 1 tell us that Jesus is the living word of life. His words, his life is the living expression and revelation of God. He is God.
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Special revelation. Dreams, visions, trances, angelic visitations, prophecy, audible voice of the Lord. All of these are well documented expressions of God revealing himself to men and women in the Bible. We can test the authenticity of these encounters by using scripture. As stated above, Scripture is God’s revelation to us about himself, and He will not contradict Himself. His Word is constant and steadfast, therefore all special revelations can be held to the integrity of scripture.
However special revelation is extremely important. Without it, Paul who had scripture memorized would have never been saved on the road to Damascus. Without it Joseph would have left Mary when he learned she was pregnant. Without it Timothy would have lost heart in his ministry. Without it Peter would have never accepted the gentiles. Without it the Nicene Fathers would have never deciphered the Cannon, Martin Luther would have never revived the church, and the Awakening lead by Wesley and Edwards would have just been an intellectual event. Special revelation from the Holy Spirit of God within us is gravely important.
Revelation is important, in fact it is vital. Without it we have vainly constructed systems and opinions that have no real eternal value. Without revelation we have vanity.
“He has made everything beautiful in its time. He has also set eternity in the hearts of men; yet they cannot fathom what God has done from beginning to end.” Eccl. 3:11
I’m going to chew on that. More to come…
8 Comments
Jpm4000000pmMon, 28 Apr 2008 20:47:04 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, April 28, 2008
well said!
Jpm4000000pmMon, 28 Apr 2008 21:02:55 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, April 28, 2008
Been reading this site for awhile… enjoy it very much.
>> I not only find the subject relevant, but pertinent as there is a growing rise of cessasionist camps speaking out against current Holy Spirit revelation, and camps making things not inspired by God “Holy Spirit revelation”.
<< Many continuists and reformed charismatics as well…
Jpm4000000pmMon, 28 Apr 2008 21:08:22 +000008 5, 2007 at Monday, April 28, 2008
Agreed
Jpm4000000pmTue, 29 Apr 2008 16:56:59 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, April 29, 2008
“Revelation is important, in fact it is vital. Without it we have vainly constructed systems and opinions that have no real eternal value. Without revelation we have vanity.”
Just to clarify: I assume you are using the word “revelation” here in a general sense? All Christians would agree to numbers 1 and 2. Obviously, number 3 is where disagreement abounds.
Additionally, I would be curious as to how you would distinguish a general leading of the Holy Spirit alluded to with the examples of the Nicene Fathers and Luther, and “Dreams, visions, trances, angelic visitations, prophecy, audible voice of the Lord” – those experiences more generally associated with ancient mystics and modern charismatics.
FYI – Theologically, I walk the fence on this issue, though to be honest I am practically (in practice) a cessationist.
Jpm4000000pmTue, 29 Apr 2008 17:29:44 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, April 29, 2008
Jim to your first question, yes I was speaking generally.
On number 3, this is where disagreement abounds on their practice and application, but shouldn’t abound on their existence as that is pretty steadfast in both scripture and church history.
The 3 types of revelation I actually have to admit I stole from Mark Driscoll on his talk a few weeks ago about called “God Speaks” The points were his the exposition mine.
The Nicene Fathers well documented their hearing from the Lord, and also having had dreams that helped them define the Cannon. Luther had dreams that along with his study of the scripture that lead to his thesis.
“those experiences more generally associated with ancient mystics and modern charismatics.”
Not True.
All of the above are what happened in the book of Acts. Peter falls into a trance and has a vision in Acts 10:10. Paul talks about praying in the Temple and falling into a trance in Acts 22:17. Angelic encounters happened to many father in church history including Augustine.
St. Francis, St. John of the Cross, St. Bernard of Clairviex, St. Thomas Moore, and St. Patrick all had angelic encounters, dreams and visions. (though they are the mystics you are probably referring to)
Jonathan Edwards, David Brainard, John Wesley, and Charles Spurgeon all talk about hearing the voice of the Lord. Spurgeon has talked about having visions.
Mark Driscoll in his talk a few weeks ago said he has dreams that help him with decisions for his ministry. He said on a few occasions he has heard the voice of the Lord audibly.
The problem is that we on both sides have made a left and right concerning revelation. Some want it to be intellectual and practical. Some want it to be void of intellect and purely spiritual and some would say gnostic. It should be somewhere in the middle according to scripture.
Both sides are to far the other way. The Word is clear about revelation. If prophesy was to cease then why spend time giving us I Cor 14 with instructions of how to apply it? Why tell timothy to refer back to his prophecies he received, and set that example in scripture, if it was meaningless to us today. Why would we have the books of Acts filled with Phillip translating to other cities, Paul and Peter in Trances, angelic visitations, dreams and visions, and performing signs and wonders? They are not the product of one sect of Christendom, though that sect has admitably over used them. Those things don’t replace doctrine, nor are they more important than Christ, or even equal to Christ.
But they are one of the tools God has given for us to better know Him, and understand his word.
Again how they are to be applied, and interpreted is where the problem has lied. But not in their existence.
Jpm4000000pmTue, 29 Apr 2008 19:16:43 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, April 29, 2008
“The Nicene Fathers well documented their hearing from the Lord, and also having had dreams that helped them define the Cannon. Luther had dreams that along with his study of the scripture that lead to his thesis.”
I would like to know (sincerely) what exactly you’re referring to and where I might find some primary information on it. (Also on Edwards, Spurgeon, Augustine, etc. – my hunch is, having read a little Edwards, we’re talking about different things when we speak of “hearing from the Lord”.)
Of course, I accept the experiences of the Apostles, though I’m not convinced we should look at their experiences as normative for Christians today. (This may sidetrack into a conversation on modern-day Apostles – I don’t walk the fence on that one.)
“St. Francis, St. John of the Cross, St. Bernard of Clairviex, St. Thomas Moore, and St. Patrick all had angelic encounters, dreams and visions. (though they are the mystics you are probably referring to)”
Correct.
“The Word is clear about revelation. If prophesy was to cease then why spend time giving us I Cor 14…”
I’m not sure I would say Scripture is clear. While I share your skepticism on 1 Cor. 14 being used as a proof text for cessationism, the argument is a bit more complex than that, and many godly and intelligent men hold/held to a cessationist position (including many of the men you listed above).
I look forward to this series!
God Bless
Jpm4000000pmTue, 29 Apr 2008 21:52:06 +000008 5, 2007 at Tuesday, April 29, 2008
Wayne Grudem (a “charismatic calvinist” like Driscoll) has some excellent books and would be a good resource on this issue for you.
I’ve grown up in the SBC and after searching out the issue on my own (Southern Baptist’s aren’t too privy on all the spiritual gifts) I was appalled at some of the biblical reasonings of many cessasionist’s. So many are great expository preachers and scholarly men of the word but yet the position they hold so vehemently (as in the ridiculous interpretation of 1 cor 13:8-12) against tongues and prophecy is pretty weak IMO.
One thing I have found that is interesting is that many people who are continuists do not even speak in tongues, prophesy, or even have visions. They hold the position for biblical reasons whether their experience confirms it or not. A cessasionist usually holds the position for their own set of biblical reasons, but I think they are relying sometimes too much on their own experience (as in the lack of charismatic giftings in their personal spiritual experience). Even when a great theologian like John MacArthur ( whom I greatly respect) tries to justify the position I don’t find the argument incredibly convincing.
Ironically, on this issue, it seems that many cessationists are guilty of the same thing they accuse charismatics of most the time: drawing from their own experience rather than carefully thought out biblical reasoning.
Jam4000000amWed, 30 Apr 2008 00:23:04 +000008 5, 2007 at Wednesday, April 30, 2008
@ Jimb I may have been irresponsible in mentioning those facts because i don’t have the references on hand. I found them during a Google books search, I was bouncing around from book to book reading about the Niciene Fathers, but because you can’t print, save anything on google books I never documented the source. Sorry about that. i’ll do some better research and talk about it again. (which is why I’m pumped about the Windows Vista snippet tool I just found out about because I can “snippet” references!)
I’m excited as well. I will answer some of the other questions you possed in time and with some research. (i’ve learned my lesson from previous discussions of our
@ Bryan,
I love Grudem! I have his book on prophecy, as well as his systematic book.
I feel the same way about McArthur. i love his stuff, but most arguments I’ve heard are mostly assuming alot about scripture, and are based on experience. Now They are more wise than I, so I’m not discrediting McArthur, but his thesis doesn’t seem to stick for me.
The 1 cor 13:8-12 argument doesn’t work for me either. It’s an ambiguous verse making a statement about love not the gifts. They put way too much in that “boat” and it ends up sinking. If they had more than ambiguous scripture to give me, I’d be in. But there is way to much instruction and definition about the gifts in scripture to negate them “continuing” which is why the bulk of church history maintains.
But these are the types of things we’ll go over in the coming weeks! Not just cessationists, I want to talk about the extreme charismatic side too. I’ll say this my point in the discussion isn;t to pit one side verses the other, or everyone against my opinion. The purpose is for us of didn’t sides of the coin to stare at scripture and present our conclusions. For the sake of finding clarity
Bryan I’m glad you’ll be involved in the discussion.
much love all