I’m excited as well. I will answer some of the other questions you possed in time and with some research. (i’ve learned my lesson from previous discussions of our

@ Bryan,

I love Grudem! I have his book on prophecy, as well as his systematic book.

I feel the same way about McArthur. i love his stuff, but most arguments I’ve heard are mostly assuming alot about scripture, and are based on experience. Now They are more wise than I, so I’m not discrediting McArthur, but his thesis doesn’t seem to stick for me.

The 1 cor 13:8-12 argument doesn’t work for me either. It’s an ambiguous verse making a statement about love not the gifts. They put way too much in that “boat” and it ends up sinking. If they had more than ambiguous scripture to give me, I’d be in. But there is way to much instruction and definition about the gifts in scripture to negate them “continuing” which is why the bulk of church history maintains.

But these are the types of things we’ll go over in the coming weeks! Not just cessationists, I want to talk about the extreme charismatic side too. I’ll say this my point in the discussion isn;t to pit one side verses the other, or everyone against my opinion. The purpose is for us of didn’t sides of the coin to stare at scripture and present our conclusions. For the sake of finding clarity

Bryan I’m glad you’ll be involved in the discussion.

much love all

One thing I have found that is interesting is that many people who are continuists do not even speak in tongues, prophesy, or even have visions. They hold the position for biblical reasons whether their experience confirms it or not. A cessasionist usually holds the position for their own set of biblical reasons, but I think they are relying sometimes too much on their own experience (as in the lack of charismatic giftings in their personal spiritual experience). Even when a great theologian like John MacArthur ( whom I greatly respect) tries to justify the position I don’t find the argument incredibly convincing.

Ironically, on this issue, it seems that many cessationists are guilty of the same thing they accuse charismatics of most the time: drawing from their own experience rather than carefully thought out biblical reasoning.

I would like to know (sincerely) what exactly you’re referring to and where I might find some primary information on it. (Also on Edwards, Spurgeon, Augustine, etc. – my hunch is, having read a little Edwards, we’re talking about different things when we speak of “hearing from the Lord”.)

Of course, I accept the experiences of the Apostles, though I’m not convinced we should look at their experiences as normative for Christians today. (This may sidetrack into a conversation on modern-day Apostles – I don’t walk the fence on that one.)

“St. Francis, St. John of the Cross, St. Bernard of Clairviex, St. Thomas Moore, and St. Patrick all had angelic encounters, dreams and visions. (though they are the mystics you are probably referring to)”

Correct.

“The Word is clear about revelation. If prophesy was to cease then why spend time giving us I Cor 14…”

I’m not sure I would say Scripture is clear. While I share your skepticism on 1 Cor. 14 being used as a proof text for cessationism, the argument is a bit more complex than that, and many godly and intelligent men hold/held to a cessationist position (including many of the men you listed above).

I look forward to this series!

God Bless

On number 3, this is where disagreement abounds on their practice and application, but shouldn’t abound on their existence as that is pretty steadfast in both scripture and church history.

The 3 types of revelation I actually have to admit I stole from Mark Driscoll on his talk a few weeks ago about called “God Speaks” The points were his the exposition mine.

The Nicene Fathers well documented their hearing from the Lord, and also having had dreams that helped them define the Cannon. Luther had dreams that along with his study of the scripture that lead to his thesis.

“those experiences more generally associated with ancient mystics and modern charismatics.”

Not True.

All of the above are what happened in the book of Acts. Peter falls into a trance and has a vision in Acts 10:10. Paul talks about praying in the Temple and falling into a trance in Acts 22:17. Angelic encounters happened to many father in church history including Augustine.

St. Francis, St. John of the Cross, St. Bernard of Clairviex, St. Thomas Moore, and St. Patrick all had angelic encounters, dreams and visions. (though they are the mystics you are probably referring to)

Jonathan Edwards, David Brainard, John Wesley, and Charles Spurgeon all talk about hearing the voice of the Lord. Spurgeon has talked about having visions.

Mark Driscoll in his talk a few weeks ago said he has dreams that help him with decisions for his ministry. He said on a few occasions he has heard the voice of the Lord audibly.

The problem is that we on both sides have made a left and right concerning revelation. Some want it to be intellectual and practical. Some want it to be void of intellect and purely spiritual and some would say gnostic. It should be somewhere in the middle according to scripture.

Both sides are to far the other way. The Word is clear about revelation. If prophesy was to cease then why spend time giving us I Cor 14 with instructions of how to apply it? Why tell timothy to refer back to his prophecies he received, and set that example in scripture, if it was meaningless to us today. Why would we have the books of Acts filled with Phillip translating to other cities, Paul and Peter in Trances, angelic visitations, dreams and visions, and performing signs and wonders? They are not the product of one sect of Christendom, though that sect has admitably over used them. Those things don’t replace doctrine, nor are they more important than Christ, or even equal to Christ.

But they are one of the tools God has given for us to better know Him, and understand his word.

Again how they are to be applied, and interpreted is where the problem has lied. But not in their existence.

Just to clarify: I assume you are using the word “revelation” here in a general sense? All Christians would agree to numbers 1 and 2. Obviously, number 3 is where disagreement abounds.

Additionally, I would be curious as to how you would distinguish a general leading of the Holy Spirit alluded to with the examples of the Nicene Fathers and Luther, and “Dreams, visions, trances, angelic visitations, prophecy, audible voice of the Lord” – those experiences more generally associated with ancient mystics and modern charismatics.

FYI – Theologically, I walk the fence on this issue, though to be honest I am practically (in practice) a cessationist.

>> I not only find the subject relevant, but pertinent as there is a growing rise of cessasionist camps speaking out against current Holy Spirit revelation, and camps making things not inspired by God “Holy Spirit revelation”.

<< Many continuists and reformed charismatics as well…