That is the point I was trying to make the entire post!

thank you thank you. I know we don’t agree still. But i do so appreciate your friendship.

.::zack

It has nothing to do with age. I’m old, your’re young, but that should have no bearing whatsoever, since the Lord is no respecter of persons, otherwise we would all be in very deep trouble!

I don’t know whether this Drew is our Drew from the Sign or of Jonah, or someone else. But it really does not matter. Age should not be a factor but truth, and what the Lord wants accomplished vis a vis the spiritual gifts. In the end, that is all that matters.

In my humble opinion, what has happened is that the radical charismatic fringe has so polluted something that should be pure and God given to advance the kingdom of God, that we all have become suspicious as to whether anything that occurs outside of the accepted “norm” is really of God.

I find that incredibly sad.

I will admit that you are completely right.

this will not be fruitful

I’m shutting this discussion down. all wanting to comment check out the next post

.::zackhensley

Research on cessationism is actually sparse and rather broad. Most books, and I mean books I’ve read don’t give any bible but concepts that have been passed down.

Honestly wasn’t expecting this type backlash.

@ drew I touched on Eph. 2:20 above. can you really tell me that your interpretation is not proof texting as well? I mean really?

Sure I’m a shallow scholar, I’m also 26, and using this blog, (which is what i thought blogging was all about. to develope my understanding of things.

At 26 i can’t possibly understand everything.

But I think, again if you want to actually give me Bible that isn’t the 3 obscure verse mentioned in the post. then you can help.

because It seems to me that you are using the Bible to fit a concept, not the other way around.

blessings all

Well since the A/G church, the largest pentecostal denomination in the world, does not recognize the Office of the prophet or apostle does that make them cessationists? I don’t think so. You’ve just lumped the agenda of the N.A.R. into you definition, and I think that really muddies the water.

Where did you get this “office” stuff from anyhow? I thought church government was based on elders and deacons.

To paraphrase your own words, “I do not agree with this school of thought for one simple reason: There is no actual evidence in scripture.”

But seriously, Zack, the office argument is not the same as cessastionism, is it?

I think this is a thoughtful position, and it does not make the A/G cessationists.

http://ag.org/top/Beliefs/Position_Papers/pp_downloads/pp_4195_apostles_prophets.pdf

-Bill

And while Bonnke and Graham have large individual ministries and hold big crusades (agree to disagree that “millions” have been saved), they are not respectable theologians. I think both of the men in question would agree to that. And to call one an apostle leaves out one criteria that Paul gives us in 1 Cor. 9. To see the risen Christ. The authority given an Apostle (of Christ, hence the capitalization) was a legal term, basically meaning “power of attorney.” Again the aforementioned men don’t add up.

In regards to the communication of God today, as a cessationist, I believe God speaks today through the working of the Holy Spirit as we read his word, opening our eyes to that which was once foolishness to us. I believe this is biblical and normative. So to say we believe that God does not speak today is quite incorrect.

In regards to your questions from Scripture…

Peter tells us in Acts 2 that that event (the Pentecost) was THE fulfillment of Joel. One time event. “This is that which was prophesied…”

The proof-text from Ephesians is not really a question about the charismatic gifts per se, but of the continuation of the Apostles, is it not?. Regardless, Ephesians 4 needs to be understood in light of what was written not two chapters prior in Ephesians 2:20, stating that the Apostles were the foundation of the Church with Christ as the chief cornerstone. And in 1 Cor. 3 we catch up with Paul as he uses the language of his role as foundation-builder. He cautions that no one can lay another foundation once it has been laid. This shows that Paul, under guidance from the Holy Spirit, was not expecting the office he held to continue after his death.

You say you read Grudem who is a charismatic, but in his treatment of the subject, The Gift of Prophecy in the New Testament and Today, reasons from Scripture that those claiming to hear “the very words of God” are to be believed. He also says that he does not believe that the Office of Prophet continued into the NT. And he’s a respectable theologian.

These are not philosophical arguments. It is common that one who has not been exposed to the best of an argument will write it off, but do you really think cessationists are so uncommitted to the Bible that they would simply make up an argument? We don’t believe in the continuation of prophecy for crying out loud! How else are we going to know what God is saying than by reading his Word?

I also noticed you took out the word “myth” from the title. My observation from a previous comment are negated.

“These people” are our Brothers and Sisters. And just like most families, there are bound to be differences of opinion. The problem comes when neither side can see past their own thing. Guess what ? That includes me too !!

Love in Christ Jesus
Jake

I want to be clear “these people” that you speak of share in the same grace we do. We are covered by the same blood. I love them dearly, which is why I was bringing this to the table.

-when and where in scripture did this cease? and when did we stop speaking the truth to one another in love?

The outpouring in Acts 2. When and where in scripture did that cease?

I Corinthians 12:4

Now there are varieties of gifts, but the same Spirit. and there are varieties of service, but the same Lord; and there are varieties of activities, but it is the same God who empowers them all in everyone. To each is given the manifestation of the Spirit for the common good. To one is given through the Spirit the utterance of wisdom, and to another the utterance of knowledge according to the same Spirit, to another faith by the same Spirit, to another gifts of healing by the one Spirit, to another the working of miracles, to another prophecy, to another the ability to distinguish between spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, to another the interpretation of tongues. All these are empowered by one and the same Spirit, who apportions to each one individually as he wills. For just as the body is one and has many members, and all the members of the body, though many, are one body, so it is with Christ. For in one Spirit we were all baptized into one body—Jews or Greeks, slave or free—and all were made to drink of one Spirit. For the body does not consist of one member but of many…
And God has appointed in the church first apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then gifts of healing, helping, administrating, and various kinds of tongues. Are all apostles? Are all prophets? Are all teachers? Do all work miracles? Do all possess gifts of healing? Do all speak with tongues? Do all interpret? But earnestly desire the higher gifts.

And I will show you a still more excellent way. — which is Love

–When and where do the gifts cease in the Word?

In all of this i find it curious that Paul as he speaks of the gifts mentions love.

Because Love is our first calling, and the more excellent way. Charismatics have been harsh and mean to cessasionists. Cessasionists have been mean to Charismatics. Neither are outside the faith, both are required to love first.

I, I am required to love first. I have, I think legit questions, but if this post is being taken as “cocky” “harsh” and “hurtful” then i will delete it in a second.

True I am a man of “shallow scholarship”. Something I strive to remedy by studying 4-6 hours a day. I don’t even generally study charismatic theology as you assume. most of my time is in just the Bible, then Martin Lyod Jones, Barth, A.W. Pink, Stott, John McArthur, Thomas Oden, and Grudem, and at times a little Temper Longman III.

–You asked me for a single respectable charismatic leader who believes Apostleship exists today. Does Rinehart Bonke and Billy Graham count? they not only believe in it, but Rinehart operates in it. I think his ministry of seeing literally millions at a time get saved, and planting thousands if not millions of churches world wide is defiantly pretty significant of an Apostle.